Subject:Minor enhancement request.

Posted by: Weevil

Date:4/19/2002 6:02:53 PM

I often work with audio that has not been recorded to a click track.

This means I have to spend a great amount of time manually inserting a whole bunch of tempo changes and lining everything up with the ‘Adjust tempo to match cursor to marker’ function.

This is a really important and powerful feature to me but its implementation is very cumbersome. Two very minor tweaks would make this process a lot cleaner.

Firstly: I’d like to be able insert a tempo change without having to go through the ‘Tempo/key change’ dialogue every time. Adding a ‘Shift+T’ keyboard shortcut would be really simple.

Secondly: I’d also like to be able to adjust a tempo change’s tempo modelessly (without having to go through the dreaded ‘Tempo/key change’ dialogue).

...Currently you can click and drag a Tempo change marker to adjust its position. It would be excellent if you could also click and drag to change its tempo value as well.

Hold down the ‘Alt’ key, click on a tempo marker and drag it’s tempo up or down with the mouse. Easy shmeasy.

I think those two would take a couple of minutes to code and they would save me a great amount of pain.

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: nlamartina

Date:4/19/2002 6:13:24 PM

Weevil,

Firstly: I’d like to be able insert a tempo change without having to go through the ‘Tempo/key change’ dialogue every time. Adding a ‘Shift+T’ keyboard shortcut would be really simple.

Point on the timeline where you want to change something. Hit "T" for a tempo change, and "K" for a key change. Or is this what you're doing already? I'm not really clear about what you're asking...

Secondly: I’d also like to be able to adjust a tempo change’s tempo modelessly (without having to go through the dreaded ‘Tempo/key change’ dialogue).

Same here. What do you mean by "adjust the tempo change's tempo modelessly?" Right click on the change tag and select "edit". Are you doing this too? Or did you have something else in mind?

Hope this helps,
Nick LaMartina

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/19/2002 9:58:18 PM

Hi Nick,

Yep thanks, I already know how to insert the tempo changes and edit their values. Basically I'd like to be able to streamline the whole process.

Firstly: I'd like to be able to really quickly drop a whole bunch of tempo changes in the right places (without having to go through the dialogue). So I can go back later on and edit their values.

And Secondly: Instead of having to right click on the marker, selecting edit, and then manually entering the tempo change into the dialogue; I'd like to be able to simply Alt+click and drag on the marker to change it's tempo.

Cheers.

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:4/20/2002 7:58:56 PM

Hi Weevil-

Those are good suggestions, but first tell me if these methods are fast enough.

For 1: Place the cursor, hit T, Enter, repeat (hitting Enter is the one extra step).
For 2: Place the cursor at or after the tempo marker and drag the project tempo fader. (slightly more mouse movement, but not modal).

Also, here's some advice from Jonathan on the ACID 3.0 Yahoo group for dealing with variable-tempo material:
>>>My favorite technique is to take a track into Sound Forge, and drop markers every 4 beats, creating a number of 4-beat sections. Put a marker at the start and end of the song, then use Markers to Regions, and you have a series of 4-beat regions. Use Forge to Export Regions into ACID then paint like this

-x----------
--x---------
---x--------
----x-------
-----x------
------x-----

where each ---- is a track and each x is one iteration of a loop.

Now you have the original track, correctly beatified to within 4 beats. You may notice some shuffle, but it will resolve itself within 4 beats, which is nifty.

You could render this file out and then bring it back in as a beatmapped track, or just maniuplate the loops (which I think gives more control but makes for a more complex UI.)

Be sure to go back and make sure all your markers are consistently on the downbeat, othewise some loops will be longer and some shorter than others. <<


HTH,
Joel

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/21/2002 6:34:12 AM

Nice try Joel; but no cigar old boy! :-)

I just had a look at the project I am currently working on. It’s a preproduction demo so I’m not being overly precise. There are ‘only’ 54 tempo changes in this one.

So that’s 54 times I had to needlessly press the Enter key after pressing the T key. It’s 54 times I had to move the mouse from the middle of the screen all the way down to the bottom left hand corner of the screen. And 54 times I’ve had to move the mouse all the way back again.

Another way around it would be to create a keyboard shortcut for the ‘Adjust Tempo to Match Cursor to Marker’ function. Hows about holding down A while clicking on the tempo marker? Easy, easy, easy...

...Interesting stuff about using the Sound Forge region thing. Unfortunately it’s not relevant to me right now because I am importing full multitrack mixes, 24 tracks+.

However it does tie in beautifully with my ‘Automatic loop editing’ post on the Sound Forge forum. Sounds like another excellent reason to implement that idea as well!

I love it when a plan comes together. :-)

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:4/21/2002 9:23:21 PM

I'm neither old, nor a boy, nor in need of a cigar, but I did pass those three feature requests along to the development team anyway.

FWIW, they may not get implemented for a number of reasons: 1) Markers generally don't operate as Alt-drag controls, and this is non-standard Windows behavior; 2) Doing them might create a UI-inconsistency, or make it MORE complex(a bad thing); 3) Not enough time/resources to do every feature request; 4) Rather than fixing the process at this point, perhaps doing something better, earlier in the process to help workflow.

Also, I would be remiss if I didn't mention that ACID already has been designed to make your job easier than it would be otherwise, and ACID can't be blamed for 54 measures of imperfectly recorded tempo. We all take for granted that we have to press the Enter key in order to do a carriage return when typing, and if, to convey a message accurately, one has to press it 54 times, it's usually accepted. ACID 3 was originally written to provide a method of workflow to get a job done in a certain way, and often more than one way. We've been generally working to make things more non-modal (see the new audio plug-in chainer in SF6, for example) where reasonable. Maybe the dev team will see your request, and see a good way/reason to make the dialog non-modal, or maybe they'll shoot it down for any of the reasons listed above.

Cheers,
Joel

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/22/2002 8:32:12 AM

Yikes...Joel, you haven’t interpreted my light-heartedness as anything other than good natured banter have you? Sorry if it hasn’t come across that way. I am a huge fan and long time user of Acid, Vegas and Sound Forge.

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:4/22/2002 10:52:18 AM

Weevil-

Thanks for buckets of water instead of a gas can.

OK, I take back any and all ire from the previous post.. I guess I was just in a bad enough mood that yr emoticons didn't trigger enough to cover for the "old boy and cigar" phrase--I put myself through college working in the service industry, and am still trying to repress the memories of people who call you "buddy" when they want you to bring them extra braised tomatoes for their deluxe grilled cheese. <insert genuinely friendly emote here> Not that there's a direct comparison--I understand you just want to make your workflow faster.

I promise I'll try to keep my happy helmet on more often.

Candidly,
Joel

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: pwppch

Date:4/22/2002 8:30:21 PM

>>I think those two would take a couple of minutes to code and they would save me a great amount of pain.
<<

I love how everybody is an expert when it comes to new features that don't exist.

A couple of minutes ---- pluuueeeezeee.

Peter

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: Weevil

Date:4/25/2002 4:59:28 AM

>I love how everybody is an expert when it comes to new features that don't exist.
>
>A couple of minutes ---- pluuueeeezeee.
>
>Peter

Main Entry: tongue in cheek
Function: adverb
Date: circa 1934
: with insincerity, irony, or whimsical exaggeration

...Guys, my most innocent ramblings seem be causing an awful lot of stress. Again I apologise.

Can’t we just be friends?

Group hug perhaps?

Subject:RE: Minor enhancement request.

Reply by: SonicJG

Date:4/25/2002 12:11:00 PM

sure--we'll be over in a bit. :)

btw, there is nothing wrong with making feature requests--they can be quite valuable to find out what kinds of things users want from the software.

i think the thing that peter may have been taking issue with was that it's a common misconception that adding functionality is a pretty easy straightforward thing to do. most new features, even little ones, aren't always trivial, and mean one or more software developers will be spending time coding it, it will need to be documented in the help, and someone will need to test it. to call it 'a couple of minutes of code' may be taken as trivializing the work that goes into doing the job properly.

with that lesson said, imagine a big ol' hugstorm coming your way, and go forth to make some good music. in the meantime, we're still working to help you and everyone else make better music, faster, whenever possible.

cheers,
joel