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Subject:Window into your workflow
Posted by: waynegee
Date:8/2/2002 8:56:39 AM
As I was reading over the posts last night, it was amazing how much intolerance and misunderstanding was present. Then I realized, well, we are talking about artists and they are passionate about the process and their tools. And so I thought, maybe if we had a forum about our processes ONLY, this could possibly clear up the confusion. I mean, if you understand a thing, even though you don't agree with it, you can at least see where it's coming from. So we are here to talk about our workflow. I don't know how most people work these days because the computer has allowed many of us to work in solitude. But maybe this can be our window into understanding. Hopefully we can find the time to participate. I'd love to glean some knowledge from the crew here. Da Rules: 1) No rants about ACID Pro 4.0 2) No technology rants (though discussions about how certain technologies help you work are great.) 3) NO FLAMING, plz ------------------------------------------------------------------------ I work in a vertical manner. Meaning: pattern-based. I grew up sequencing with the DR-5, then graduated to the MPC, so I learned to sequence in blocks and then place those blocks where I wanted. This is why I never felt comfortable with linear-based, tape recorder style software (Cubase, Logic, Sonar, etc) although I've seen people work magic with them. When ACID came along, it was a godsend. I hardly use my MPC anymore except to input samples. I don't work with any MIDI. This is to say, other than creating my loop material with Reason, it's immediately recorded as audio. If a client comes in with seqeunces or whatever, we immediately cut audio tracks or make loops from it. That way I don't worry about modules or latency or timing issues...whatever. Also, because I cut-up and process audio to the extreme sometimes is another reason I do MIDI. I do use Sonar to record my VSTis and soft synths. If I do this, I export a two-track mix from ACID, cut the part, and then export it as a .wav file. I never leave a plug-in uninstansiated. Meaning: I always record the effect to "tape". I save the original, of course, but I fiddle to I get the sound I want and then commit it. This also saves CPU. Basically: * I create most of my original loop materials in Reason and then export each loop into a corresponding folder (i.e.: Bass, Keys, Misc, etc). * I then start "crate digging" thru my vinyl LP's/sample CD's to find additional material/sounds for source. I'll mangle these sounds using Reaktor, the Reason synths and other plug-ins and save them out as audio one-shots or loops, depending on how they are gonna be used. I use a lot of noise and ambient sounds for texture. Some are heard but most are used in a rhythmic fashion or under a loop. * I then bring all loops into ACID and lay out the song's initial structure. Usually this is the longest process. * I then start overdubbing. Meaning: either recording full-length parts or making my own loops within ACID. I then "record to new track" anything that constitutes a part and continue from there. I've got quite a few hardware synths that I use plus I play guitar and bass. * Once I have the song pretty much laid-out, I then start subtracting parts and cutting up audio. * I export each track as a separate file, import into Nuendo and mix. Examples of my work: http://madonna.acidplanet.com/Lounge/Detail.asp?PID=1026 http://www.acidplanet.com/Lounge/Detail.asp?PID=164200 http://www.acidplanet.com/Lounge/Detail.asp?PID=168705 Voila! How do you do it? |
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Subject:RE: Window into your workflow
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date:8/2/2002 9:26:30 AM
Wayne, Cool thread. I follow fairly close to your methods in that I use ACid for the foundation. I construct custom loop elements in Forge and Acid - drums, bass usually the rhythm section elements get laid down here. I don't get into any "full length" parts like live keys, guitars etc in Acid. (maybe I should - judging by the commentary in here :) When the rhythm section is cookin, depending on the song, I will go down one of two paths - if the song is "audio" only meaning no MIDI/VSTi or elements of that nature, then the tracks are exported out of Acid and over to Vegas 3. Here I will start the overdubbing/editing process. Because Vegas interfaces so nice with Forge - this combo is unbeatable for these kind of productions. I record everything dry to keep maximum flexibility come mix time. Initial mixes are done in Vegas with final CD master mixes prepared in Forge. If the song calls for any VSTi or MIDI, the Acid tracks are brought into Cubase SX (just got it and it rocks!)and the process of adding in any number of my VSTi (Native Instruments, Sonic Synth, Sampletank) commences. Guitars, noises, live keys and anything else is added here as well. Complete mix from initial balance mix to final master takes place in Cubase SX. The way I work, both methods/apps are excellent. I remain comfortable and work efficiently using these different toolkits in a consistent fashion. Best I can offer is all of them have strengths and weaknesses but I try to hit the strengths in each package and have turned out some pretty solid stuff. Cheers, Cuzin B |
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Subject:RE: Window into your workflow
Reply by: waynegee
Date:8/2/2002 11:16:45 AM
Hey Cuzin, Great response...your flow seems pretty smooth. 3 questions: 1) How long does it take you to create/record/mix a tune? My average is about two weeks a tune. Remixes can range anywhere from 3 to 4 weeks. Scoring can go longer. 2) I hardly use Vegas these days...how does it benefit you as opposed to finishing your track in ACID. Are you recording multiple parts or is the overdub feature a must have? 3) Does the ability of Vegas to overdub help you keep your track count down? I mean, the last remix I did in ACID had 106 tracks of audio. Needless to say, mixing it was a challenge. Just curious. W- |
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Subject:RE: Window into your workflow
Reply by: Jacose
Date:8/2/2002 11:48:14 AM
My workflow changes with the song, as seems the case with many others here. I am not a techno or hip hop producer, Although these elements are in my music usually... I play guitar and sing, aas well as play limited keyboards. I started out by being a punk who like nirvana.... so My approach is really based around AUDIO. Not loops or MIDI (although now I use these quite frequently........) There are different paths I take, heres one, with a couple of side roads intertwined.... First, I construct loops in Fruity, one by one. Depending on the Song, I may just arrange the loops in the playlist of fruity, and export the entire thing into vegas. (an example of this is here: http://www.sectionz.com/sz40/04detail.sz40?mp3ID=2012) The problem with this is that Fruity is limited to ONE time sig PER song (this will change soon tho) so, if I want to do weird stuff with the song, the stuff that really makes people flip out, I cant do it in Fruity. Then, I will go to Acid. I will still start in fruity tho, to create Loops from the tens of thousands of samplez Ive collected, as I like making my own beats and riffs.... The Problem with THIS is putting Synth parts in, as its better to have a nice long loop and that gets messy in Acid... However, with 4.0 coming out with vsti support, this will no longer be a problem at all.... it will integrate with these synths. So I make the loops in fruity, then put them in ACID. There are also pre-made loops I use, George clinton library, and Virunis I like alot, as well as thhose free, crappy ones you get off the net...when Acid uses Vsti there is only a few plugins I will miss out on, the fruity generators 3Xosc (which is the most Analong sounding little thing!!!) TS404 (another nice synth) and a couple of others.... but I usually use Native instruments stuff, and I cant wait to impliment Gigasampler into my setup once I buy a GSIF compatible soundcard... @!!!! After this backing trak is done, there are two ways I can go from here, I can leave it in Acid, or export to Vegas. If the backing track isnt too complicated and CPU eating, I will usually leave it in Acid... the downfall to this being the lack of multitrack features.... No overdubs, so on and so forth... If it is prettty complicated I will use the annoying (but nessecary) process of rendering over and over and recording new tracks in Vegas, until its mixed just right.... this is annoying indeed... Throughout the whole process Ill use many realtime FX pluings, although I must find a system to apply them realtime, Im too scared, afraid Ill be stuck with those sounds... What strategies have YOU used to apply in real time? even my p4 1.7ghz with 1 gig of RAM falls to its kness with the amount of processing I have going on at one time.... *(although the somwhat recent update of the waves plugins has helped this greatly) When the song is finally done, I will export to wave, and open it in cool edit,making sure the levels are right, and apply waves mastering plugins to it. I usually trim away unnessecary spaces to the left and the right in this part of the process.. and its done! I usually save 4 versions, one wave file, Mp3 at 192 kbps for my Mp3 player, Mp3 at 128 kbps for Mp3.com and Mp3 at 64 kbps for low fi transer. This whole process can take upto a month, but has taken as little as one week, as was the case with that song I posted from setion Z. (i didnt spend enough time on the vox you can tell there out of tune.... lol.. all the drums in there are done by fruity BTW) Some songs I do are folk, and in no need of Looops, or Vsti's so Ill usually do the entire thing in VEgas. Vegas and Aicd have proved to be invaluable in my music making process.. I have used Cubase SX, Logic, and SONAR 2XL, and All of these are too complicated, with too many stupid cluttery features in them...and too many issues with soundcards, drivers, display adapters, and so on. Sonic Foundry may be missing a couple of key elements, such as better interconnectivity and better Multitracking in ACid, but I will workaround thesse because It is a hell of a lot easier to do this than to have to learn the other guys' stuff and have to shell out more money for that stuff.... really what it comes down to is these programs are tools. and you dont need to only use one tool for a song, but its a little annoying when you dont just have all of your tools in one belt, when you have to get out of the house, get into the truck and switch tools, it is a painstaiking process... Please I hope they put them on one belt already :) |
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Subject:RE: Window into your workflow
Reply by: Vocalpoint
Date:8/2/2002 3:32:28 PM
Wayne, 1) How long does it take you to create/record/mix a tune? My average is about two weeks a tune. Remixes can range anywhere from 3 to 4 weeks. Scoring can go longer. A - For actual creation/tracking - I usually average about a month depending on the mood I am in. I have one song that I know is in my head but I have been working on it for over 8 months....oh well. For mixing - initial balance mixes go real fast - sometimes just minutes - I like to do em quick just to get them out to the car or blaster or wherever to hear the flaws. For finals - depending on complexity could stretch out to a month but I usually am happy after a week. 2) I hardly use Vegas these days...how does it benefit you as opposed to finishing your track in ACID. Are you recording multiple parts or is the overdub feature a must have? A - I find Acid too restricting in terms of audio "tools" to use it for multitracking and editing. Even SF will tell you it's not a multitracker but lots of folks still use it that way. And yes - I do a ton of overdubbing and patching. Multi takes are very common too. Mostly - I find Vegas to just react naturally to my workflow. I don't really have to search for anything. 3) Does the ability of Vegas to overdub help you keep your track count down? I mean, the last remix I did in ACID had 106 tracks of audio. Needless to say, mixing it was a challenge. Just curious. A - In Vegas, I don't believe I have ever gone beyond 32 tracks (and even that is a stretch for a Vegas mix). Wow - 106 Tracks -what did you put in there? Vegas allows maximium flexibilty when assembly the final big picture. Cubase SX really shines with large track counts with it's automation...so it's a bit easier to handle a large mix. Hope this helps, Cuzin B |
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Subject:RE: Window into your workflow
Reply by: zendar
Date:8/3/2002 12:55:33 PM
my workflow: sample off vinyl into soundforge, trim, normalise etc chop up breaks in recycle make beats, basslines, melody loops in fruity, export as wavs string together in acid, form basis of complete track export separate tracks to vegas, add acapellas, scratching, live stuff if needed, master and burn in wavelab no midi or external hardware |