Subject:Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Posted by: JapeCoyote

Date:4/10/2003 9:16:42 PM

I'm looking at mixers that will act as both preamps and mixers for each individual track that I want to record with the Echo Layla 20 that I have installed on my PC... I was curious as to the best ways to monitor each of the 8 tracks that go into the Layla and see if anyone had any luck with the Behringer UB Series Mixers with Preamps and Effects. I'm looking at the UB2222FX in particular which boasts 8 mic inputs with preamps.. and 12 channels... I noticed there is no MIDI and I'm wondering if this will keep me from being able to record and monitor 8 tracks at once using the mixer...

Thanks,

Jape

www.naturalus.net

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/11/2003 8:54:21 AM

The Behringer mixer (actually most any analog mixer) will work fine with your setup. This will allow you to monitor without latency and also add efx to your monitor signals if you wish. The best way to do this is to output the insert points of each mic pre (inserted only half way) which will serve as direct outs to the inputs of the Layla. If you're recording 8 simultaneous tracks then you need to bring the Layla outs into the 4 stereo inputs of the 2222 for playback monitoring (however during your actual recording you will want to monitor from the mixer channels that you are recording from -otherwise you will experience latency). If you're recording 1-2 tracks at a time (as most home studio folks do) then you can use the unused mono tracks for playback monitoring which is preferable to the stereo inputs. (Since you're posting this on the Sound Forge forum, I'm assuming you'll be recording 1-2 tracks at a time?) At any rate, if all this seems confusing, there is a really good article on this type of setup (using a Mackie 1402VLZ) in the March 2003 issue of EQ magazine. Get a copy of this and you'll have detailed instructions including diagrams.

drbam

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/11/2003 1:21:09 PM

Good advice, but a few minor corrections.

Drbam,
You recommended connecting the inserts to the inputs of the Layla. This will work, but probably not the optimal way. The insert sends are usually "Pre EQ" and FX's. So if you wanted to record the signal with EQ or FX's added you won't be able to do this. Which is actually a better way to record.

The other problem with this is that Insert sends are usually "unbalanced" outputs and the Layla has "Balanced" inputs. You can record using this setup, but the results is that you raise the noise floor of the signal being recorded. Balanced outputs are usually +6 to +10 dB higher in signal level, thus your signal to noise ration is better. Balanced outputs also utilize what is referred to as "common mode rejection". What this means is there's 2 signal wires in a balanced output and a 3rd ground wire, and everything that is "common" in these 2 signal wires(ie the noise floor) get's rejected from the signal. Thus again, it reduces the noise floor. The audio signal in these 2 wires are actually 180 degrees out of phase with each other, thus they are not "common". Other external noises entering the 2 wires also become "common", thus don't get recorded.

In plain English, it's always best to use a "Balanced" output when sending audio too the Layla or any other balanced input recording device. Thus I would either connect to a Balanced Bus output, or your master bus outputs. If these are not available on this mixer or if by chance the insert sends are balanced then do what Drbam said.

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/11/2003 4:38:54 PM

I agree Red. Having the recording signal be post fader is a better way to go and is my personal preference. I use the direct outs on my console which are post fader so this is a non-issue for me. However, with these small mixers, 4 tracks is the maximum you can record simultaneously as post fader (using the main outputs and alt 3/4 bus). And of course, always use balanced I/O when possible. ;-)

drbam

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: JapeCoyote

Date:4/13/2003 8:11:24 PM

Thanks Red and Dr. Bam for your advice. While some of it seemed Chinese to me, I am leaning toward recording staight to the Layla (since it's balanced) and only using a mixing board for preamps for my condensers and mixing down drums or multiple piece string ensembles.. I would probably take the simple route of having my monitor/headphone come straight from layla as well... but I'm curious as to what limitations this might create.

Thanks again,

Jape

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: drbam

Date:4/14/2003 9:02:16 AM

<<I would probably take the simple route of having my monitor/headphone come straight from layla as well... but I'm curious as to what limitations this might create. >>

As mentioned earlier, a primary advantage of using an analog mixer in a DAW system is to avoid latency while monitoring the recorded signal. Depending on how you're working, latency may not be a big issue for you. You can experiment and find out what works best for you. If you monitor the recorded signal from the Layla then you will experience some latency. How much depends on several other factors, ie; the component quality and power of your DAW, how many tracks and plug ins you're running, how you've configured your settings, etc.

drbam

Subject:RE: Using a Mixer (Behringer?) with Vegas and a Layla 20...

Reply by: Rednroll

Date:4/14/2003 9:43:15 AM

"but I'm curious as to what limitations this might create."

The Layla has 8ins/8outs. So as far as limitations, it depends on how you are recording. If you need to record 8 simultaneous tracks at one time, then having this mixer might be a limitation. I'm not too familiar with this mixer's features. If each channel has a "direct out" as Drbam mentioned previously, then you can route each direct out to an input of the Layla and record 8 different tracks at one time. You can also achieve this same type of thing using the insert sends of each channel as Drbam mentioned, but you have the drawbacks which I outlined. Ultimately what you need to make full use of the Layla is a mixer which has at least 8 channels, with direct outs. It would be better to actually have a mixer with 16 channels. 8 for the Layla outputs, and then 8 for whatever else you need to plug into it (ie keyboards, drum machine, sampler, microphones, turntables, cd player). These extra 8 channels, you would then need to have the direct outs connected to the inputs of the Layla or you would need buss outputs that you can route faders to specific outputs. A board with 4 buses and direct outputs would give you good flexibility. A board with 8 buses would give you maximum flexibility(ie you could route any input signal to any output, then these 8 bus outputs would connect directly to the inputs of the Layla).

In EVERY mixer there are 5 basic sections, once you understand how to properly use these sections, making decisions on mixing boards for what you are trying to achieve makes your shopping experience a whole lot meaningful.

Mixer sections:
1. Input
2. Monitor
3. routing
4. FX's
5. Cue's