Subject:Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Posted by: tropikel
Date:9/1/2004 7:44:44 PM
As a long time reader of the Sony Forums I usually could find the answer to my question in a search, but alas, I am asking for your help before I go NUTS. I use Vegas 5.0 for video mostly, but in my spare time wanted to use my SF 7.0 to put LP’s on to CD. I admit I’m an audio idiot and am constantly looking up audio terms (with me still going, “huhh?”). Anyway, I use a Sony Vaio GRX570 and have an ECHO Indigo I/O sound card and am using a Audio-Technica turntable with a diamond stylus cartridge with a built-in preamp. Using the turntable preamp and connected to the input of my Indigo, I could never get any levels higher than -15db. I see in the SF Forum that apparently the Indigo I/O is “Line Level” only and a separate preamp is recommended. Upon more searching I saw that the Behringer UB802 would allow me to be able to adjust the levels to the preferred –3 to –6 range. I purchased the UB802 and fired it up. I was very happy while I was reaching for my headphones that I could see increased levels already. After listening though it was a different story. The output sounds TERRIBLE! The low range and guitar licks sound somewhat recognizable, but the vocals are like someone singing into those tin cans and string “phones” I made as a child. The vocals, sounding as bad as they do, is almost inaudible, sounding way in the distance. I tried various adjustments to the HI, MID and LO Eq knobs with no improvement at all, played around with the Main Output levels and the Gain control, again with no improvement. (yes, I did have the turntable preamp off) Where am I going wrong here ?? Mahalo, Kelly |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: Chienworks
Date:9/2/2004 4:54:40 AM
You will want to keep the turntable's preamp on. It supplies the RIAA equalization necessary to restore the tonal balance from the LP. The Behringer mixer has no RIAA equalization built in to compensate, so the turntable's preamp is still necessary. I suspect what is happening is that your sound card's record level is set too low and you are trying to correct for that by increasing the signal from the mixer. However, if you turn up the output of the mixer too high you will get distortion even if the recorded signal is still low. The mixer's output should never go above about +6dB and probably keeping it under +3dB is safer. If this still isn't giving you a hefty signal in Sound Forge then you need to increase the volume somewhere else. Have you been adjusting the recording input on the sound card? Most cards have two separate sets of volume controls. One set is the 'playback/monitoring' volume that only affects what you hear coming back out of the process; it doesn't affect the strength of the signal being recorded. The other set is the 'recording' volume. It's possible that you've only been turning up the playback/monitoring volume. If you still don't get a full signal, you can always adjust the volume after recording in Sound Forge. Process / Volume will let you increase the signal up to +20dB. This should certainly be enough to correct the problem. Generally you don't need to worry about low record levels from sources like LP and cassette tape. The computer's recording system has a much greater dynamic range than the source, so recording low and boosting afterwards shouldn't introduce much more noise than was already there. Good luck! |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: plasmavideo
Date:9/2/2004 8:10:40 AM
You know, Kelly, your description of the vocals sounding tinny and way far away almost sounds like there is a phase reversal somewhere that is cancelling out the center channel vocals! Assuming that you are using molded phono connectors everywhere, it sounds almost impossible to flip phase. However, check and see if the Behringer has a channel phase reversal switch on one of your inputs - some do. Also, make sure that the small wires connecting to the actual phono cartridge in the arm are correctly attached. It may be possible to flip a phase there. Other than those two places to check I can't imagine where else the phase might be flipped (if indeed it is a phase reversal). Good luck! If I think of anything else I'll post. Tom |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: Chienworks
Date:9/2/2004 9:06:56 AM
I'm not familiar with that sound card so i don't know what input connectors it has. However, if by chance it uses a 1/8" stereo connector then you can get phase cancellation if the plug isn't inserted all the way. You basically end up with the signal path being mono with the left channel positive and the right channel negative. You can hear this very easily with a portable CD player and headphones by loosening the headphone plug and jiggling it to just the right spot. If it is a phase reversal that can't be fixed with the wiring, it can be fixed very easily in Sound Forge. Assuming that it is a stereo recording and not the plug situation mentioned above, select one channel and Process / Invert Phase. |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: tropikel
Date:9/2/2004 12:08:49 PM
Thank you for your replies. I’m not where the turntable is right now so I will try with the phono preamp on too later and let you know how that works. For the life of me, I cannot find how to increase the record levels on the ECHO Ingigo I/O. I do recall a post that mentions the Indigo as not able to be adjusted for record levels. Maybe someone who knows will post. If the output still does not improve, I will check for phase cancellation. For input, I am using a molded Balanced ¼” TS to 2 RCA’s adapter and it is pushed in all the way. Kelly, I’ll be honest with you, you mentioned that, “The computer's recording system has a much greater dynamic range than the source, so recording low and boosting afterwards shouldn't introduce much more noise than was already there.” I have recorded from turntable to Vegas or SF, getting no better levels than +15, run Click and Crackle removal, burn to DAO and they sound surprisingly good. I know a lot of people might cringe and I know I’m missing out on some quality, but they do sound pretty darn good…have to turn up the volume knob a little though. I do want to do it right though so that’s why I’m trying to get the ideal levels with the UB802 mixer preamps. Mahalo, Kelly |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: Geoff_Wood
Date:9/2/2004 7:30:00 PM
Without the RIAA EQ-preamp you will have a 40dB difference in level at 20KHz wrt 20Hz. This is hugely significant, and cannot bve compensated for in software because of headroom and gain/noise issues. geoff |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: drbam
Date:9/3/2004 7:05:18 AM
There is no way to adjust record levels with Echo cards (except with the older 20bit models). Record levels are controlled via your mixer (or mic pre, etc). For what you're doing the UB802 should work fine and give you plenty of gain, and yes, make sure to output from the turntable preamp. drbam |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: plasmavideo
Date:9/3/2004 9:10:09 AM
Here's a web address with a lot of info on the RIAA curve: http://www.graniteaudio.com/phono/page5.html |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: musicvid10
Date:9/5/2004 10:43:44 AM
1. Keep the turntable amps on, you need the RIAA eq and boost. 2. -15db is an ok (but not ideal) input level. Boosting it by putting another piece of equipment in line will only add noise. You can normalize in SoundForge and it won't add noise like a second pream will. 3. Behringer advertises low-noise preamp stages but my experience with them does not bear this out. Look at some of the M-Audio preamps if you feel you need to go this way. |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: Geoff_Wood
Date:9/6/2004 4:02:13 PM
" You can normalize in SoundForge and it won't add noise like a second pream will." Well it will - it will bring the background noise up 15dB. geoff |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: musicvid10
Date:9/7/2004 1:56:30 AM
I didn't go into detail so as not to burden the OP with extra information. BTW, sorry about the typo, I meant "preamp". It is true that the noise floor changes LINEARLY with amount of gain applied in post. In other words, if the signal is raised 15db, so will the noise. However, the S/N ratio will not be changed, and this is what I meant. A third device in the line will always add some extra noise, thereby lowering the S/N ratio and increasing noise more than post processing would. It's a tradeoff of recording at suboptimal levels, but not near the issue it was with analog recordings. . . . |
Subject:RE: Vinyl to CD, Going Nuts
Reply by: kbruff
Date:9/7/2004 7:12:30 AM
To simplify matters: Buy a sound card with SPDIF input, and then a turn table with SPDIF output. You cant get more direct than that. Minimal signal loss, no dc offset, and perfect synchronization every time. Here is where it gets tricky: BUY A PHONO Cartridge with a low output, below 3.5mv, why? To avoid Digital Clipping and Signal Saturation. Furthermore the events which causes pops and clicks will be visually distinctive from the audio data, because the relative amplitude will be much higher. My setup (well one of them) PC - SF7.0b - Digital Audio Labs sound card - Denon Digital Turntable - Audio Technica Audiophile Cartridge. With that simple arrangment archiving vinyl is such a pleasure. On top of that, you have a great array of pluggins for further manipulation. -- Happy - Digitizing -- |