Subject:SF8 a live product?

Posted by: drmathprog

Date:3/14/2006 5:29:32 PM

I'm a licensed user of SF6, and I'm test driving the SF8 demo. If I didn't know better, I would assume the demo is a beta version; it's very unstable and squirrley. I see much less activity on this forum compared with the Acid or Vegas forums, and I see that the last SF8 update was in Aug 2005. Is SF8 still an active product?

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:3/14/2006 5:55:24 PM

Been asking this for a while....sure feels like a phase out....but nobody can seem to confirm....

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/15/2006 4:57:36 AM

- Anyone from Sony -- care to comment
on the future of an update or
even SF9 development time.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Ben 

Date:3/15/2006 4:59:10 AM

I'm shocked on a daily basis by quite how buggy SF 8 is. I'm back to using version 6 here sadly - the last stable version for me. It's tragic how a product with such a hertitage can become more unusable as the years have gone by!

The most stable ever version? 4.5...

Ben

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:3/15/2006 1:29:51 PM

Fix SF8

Sony, where are you with this? Update your users.
This is so unprofessional.

One sony tech replied in this forum that "he sees the problem now...".
And that was all that was said. No word that it would be fixed, that an update is in the works, when an update will surface, or ny workarounds for users until then.

And - SF8 batch converter NEEDS WORK as well. There's RANDOM crashing, plugins not retaining settings upon batching, auto-trim process does NOT work in sf8 batch converter (yet works in the old foundry 5.0b batch converter), just plenty that needs a thorough once over.

Ridiculous. This product should get this attention, it's your flagship 2-track editor for christs sake.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Geoff_Wood

Date:3/15/2006 2:04:50 PM

Am I the only person using SF8 daily with no problems ?

geoff

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:3/15/2006 2:18:49 PM

Yes, Sound Forge is still an active product.

If you read between the lines of this post, you might guess that another update for 8.0 is in the works. I can't publicly commit to a date, but "pretty soon" is a fair assumption.

If you are experiencing specific problems, there may be workarounds or fixes already posted on this forum or in the knowledge base. If not, the best thing you can do is submit a precise description of your issue to tech support, even if you are just using the demo.

J.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:3/15/2006 3:09:00 PM

>>>Am I the only person using SF8 daily with no problems ?<<<

The question is, to what degree are you using it?

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:3/15/2006 3:42:14 PM

Reply to forumadmin:

Your last reply in the thread link you listed:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
"Subject: RE: Random SF 8.0b Freezes
Reply by: ForumAdmin
Date: 2/22/2006 2:04:58 PM

I have finally reproduced this problem and discovered the root cause.

In light of this and other known bugs, another update for 8.0 is highly probable.

In the meantime....

If you are previewing DirectX or VST plug-ins modally (i.e. via Process, Effects, or FX Favorites menus) and tend to work with very short selections, a couple things may help.

1) Use the chainer instead. Handy tip: note that you can drag and drop from the Plug-In Manager onto an open file to add the plug-in to the chain.

2) Uncheck "Real-Time". This should bypass the problem entirely and will have little effect on response for selections up to 5 seconds or so (for most effects). See Options->Prefs->Previews for more non-realtime options.

3) If that is unacceptable, it may help to stop previewing within the modal dialog and wait a beat before hitting OK or Cancel.

J.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Ok,

1. what the heck does "highly probable" mean in regards to a fix ?
It's "highly probable" you've already lost a large portion of the user base to Wavelab and will lose more unless this app is fixed.

2. You "discovered the root cause", but would you mind informing us what that is please? Or is there a reason you cannot (heck, maybe there is...we dont't know).

3. Use the chainer instead? Who out there isn't using the chainer?
It still freezes. What about the batch cvrtr chainer?...applies to that too?

4. What about sf8 Batch converter? No mention of the stated batch converter issues? Shall we assume "possible" fixes will apply to this as well? I sure hope so. The sf8 Batch Converter is AWFUL. in terms of some func and stability (see some items I've listed for you).

*if you arent' seeing these problems at Sony...then please describe all your testing scenarios please. Your user base can help. Cause I can't get these issues to stop on several systems I've tested it on.

5. Uncheck realtime? PLEASE tell us a fix will arrive soon. I don't know many who only preview at short length. Realtime is necessary.

6. The crashing can happen at preview, but the majority I've seen happen upon processing/mid-processing. Take batch converter for example....it'll go about it's route cvting and processing files ...then WHAM...crash. Have to close it...then a sec later an forge window will popup telling you sf8 has crashed (no shit).

Then launch sf8 batch cvrtr again (same settings - same files, same proj basically)...and it will do it all and finish just fine. Huh?? So hopefully you get the gist this is extremely random and hard to repro.

Another (related?) cvtr issue: auto-trim in sf9 btch cvrtr does not work. Not retaining settings. Works fine/as it should in foundrys 5.0b btch cvrtr.

Another? - this one's with Vegas (but possibly related): Ultrafunk or Cakewalk Sonitus DX plugins are not retaining their settings in VEGAS (6c here) UPON RENDERING (or sumpin is going on).
Not sure if it's just on the master buss, or if placed on a trk/bus as well. Example - I need the ultrfunk/sonitus reverb on the master buss...all previews fine, settings holding and previewing is as it should be....
then go render and it's clear the rendered output has problems - like the verb plugin settings reverted to defualt upon render (or something is going on).

I don't see many issues with previewing, editing a few opne .wav/.mp3 files moreso than with sf8 batching, just a few freezes here or there upon processing. But batching is even worse (crashing).

if you're no longer supporting the foundry batch cvrtr...can you at least bring the sf8 cvrtr up to snuff with it ...please?
I can't tell you how integral the cvtr func is to many people in my line of work.

My related sys info:
- 2 maudio delta 1010's (using .27 and now the .48a - set for MME in vegas and forge).
- Problems happen on my Intel P4's and latest amd x2 4400+ system (Nforce3 ultra chipset, agp/pci mobo and 2gb ram)
- No unnecessary processes running.
- winxp pro (x32bit - not x64) SP2, all latest windows updates

thanks

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:3/16/2006 5:28:23 AM

"Am I the only person using SF8 daily with no problems ?"

No problems here either, ever. But then again, most of what i'm doing is cuts, crossfades, noise reduction, and the built-in processing and effects.

I can only remember one Sound Forge crash, and i think it was more a Windows fault than Sound Forge. I had three copies of Sound Forge running simultaneously (5, 6, & 7), plus about 40 other programs open. Sound Forge 7 locked up, then the whole system went unstable and i was finally forced to reboot. I opened up Sound Forge 7 again and it said i had a temporary file to recover. I recovered it and it contained every edit i had done right up to the point where it had locked up.

I've probably logged an average of 2 hours a day with Sound Forge for over 12 years now. I'd say it's been one of the most stable products i've ever used.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/16/2006 7:17:02 AM

no complaints here....... so far

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Ben 

Date:3/16/2006 7:52:43 AM

Hmmm, well it's not idiots or newbies here exactly that are having problems! It's long-time Forge users who a) know what they're doing and b) haven't had this amount of issues with previous releases.

And, no, I'm not exactly doing anything cutting edge with SF 8 either. Your usual sort of stuff... generally having crashes/lockups when or after processing in-built Sound Forge FX, as has been previously documented here many times. It does make me wonder why it takes, what, over six months to fix this. And that's assuming they release a build new tomorrow, which unfortunately seems unlikely.

I for one don't find "I'm alright jack" responses very constructive.

Ben

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:3/16/2006 8:11:24 AM

First, let me restate that this is a user forum. While I and other SMS employees monitor them from time to time, we may not read every post on every issue. Significant issues and suspected bugs should always be forwarded to tech support.

1) "Highly probable" means SMS does not promise or announce updates on public forums until they are actually available, even if they are already work in progress.

2) The "root cause" I meant was the actual bug causing the lockup (I am a developer, not a "tech"). It is a timing issue that is most readily exposed when real-time previewing a selection less than 0.5 seconds, dismissing the dialog, and immediately starting regular playback.

3) I am unaware of any chainer freezing issues, please elaborate on specific file types and plug-ins used when you see this. Please also forward as complete a description as possible to tech support.

4) Please elaborate on the details of your batch jobs and what you are seeing, including:
- file types and locations
- specific effects applied
- metadata options
- save options, file types, and their templates
- any other open applications
- what exactly crashes, just BC or the entire app? Is it frozen or does it actually crash? Is there a crash-dump provided?

Again, also please forward to tech support.

5) Unchecking real-time was suggested as a workaround for that particular issue, not a permanent solution.

6) See #4. Also, if you wish to elaborate on which settings you are using in Auto-Trim/Crop and the behavior you are seeing versus what you expect, I can verify that it has been (or will be) fixed.

J.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: LittleStudios

Date:3/16/2006 8:25:41 AM

ok the way i look at things is i highly doubt SONY wants to lose customers, especially in a growing market as such. now i'm sure they are in the works on these bugs and fixes, heck they could be working on SF9 for all we know. it wouldn't be wise for them to let the cat out of the bag and let their competitors know. If you have an issue, quit acting like a bunch of big babies and report it to the people who can do somthing about it. give them every single bit of information that you can. if you make it known that you are having problems, i'm sure they'll get on it, because if word gets out that their products are crap and that they have horrible customer support then they will lose current customers and future ones also. i'm sure this post is going to get negative responses, but i'm trying to keep a level head about things and be realistic.

also, Ben, don't be angry with the people who say "I'm alright jack", they didn't do anything to you. Be angry with SONY. No one said that the people having problems with SF are newbies or idiots. maybe take a look at the ppl who aren't having problems setup or ask them what they do that makes their system have less crashes. heck for you know they may just be normalizing and that's it. you're possibly doing waaayyyyy more complicated processes.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: Vocalpoint

Date:3/16/2006 11:51:22 AM

"ok the way i look at things is i highly doubt SONY wants to lose customers, especially in a growing market as such. "

Well here's the news, little guy - they HAVE lost customers. I know for a fact they lost me. And the market for what really is a two track stereo editing app is really not growing like you may think. However - amongst it's real competitors (like it or not) - Wavelab 6.0 makes Forge look like a shareware product.....

"now i'm sure they are in the works on these bugs and fixes, heck they could be working on SF9 for all we know. it wouldn't be wise for them to let the cat out of the bag and let their competitors know."

Really...who cares what they are working on? They could not deliver a solid, working 8.0 - who wants to pay more for a 9.0. Generally, the current competition (let's call them Audition and WL) are so far ahead now that it doesn't really matter. What could the Forge dev team possibly let out of the bag anyway?

Call me crazy - but all I want in a professional level app...is stability and efficiency - not 48 new bells and whistles that are going to introduce a scad of new bugs and bring the whole thing crashing down.

That is one of the key weaknesses to the blob that Forge has become - instead of tightening it's grip as the "king of editors", which I believe it most certainly was....say 3-4 years ago, by making it's core workflow processes the best they could be (like when they ripped out the old batch converter etc etc)....the Forge of today has become a overweight, pokey husk of it's former self replete with numerous half backed new features duct taped onto the product...designed for one purpose - to raise cash.

Example (and I know I keep flogging this but) - I can't see the guy who codes Wavelab getting worried about Forge's batch converter for example. WL's batch tool is light-years beyond and works flawlessly everytime.

Bottom line for me is my initial user experience. Those crucial first hours of using the app in a professional setting for a paying job is what really lets me know if I have chosen wisely. I have had WL 6.0 (in it's initial "right from DVD" non-patched release) for just two weeks - but I have been ripping thru session after session without so much as a blip. And I pound the crap outa this thing for all kinds of editing, post and commerical work...and it just never yields or shows any problems.

By comparison - when I trialled the Forge 8.0 initial release - I tried very hard to replicate my typical session workflow but it was nothing but problems and bugs...and by far the lamest excuse for a batch converter (which I was REALLY excited about BTW) I had even seen. That trial was such a disaster that I went right back to WL 4 for my client work while I waiting months to see what WL 6 had to offer.

SF 8.0 has been a mess of sorts since release day...many threads here and elsewhere bear this out. But more recently - the real eye-opener for me was discussion amongst my radio and VO collegues. Many of these guys and gals used to really lean on Forge a lot for their work. Many still do - but not in it's current form. The most popular Forge amongst my contacts that still use it is somewhere between 5.0/6.0. - oddly hailing from the Sonic Foundry days. Others have gone the Wavelab route while many are now gravitating to Adobe Audition which by the amount of times I encounter it, may just be our new market leader.

Sadly - these folks that I describe and work with should be Forge's primary target market concern. These people know audio editing workflow better than anyone and they expect the best in a professional application. Forge "was" their choice once upon a time - but this app hasn't had an update in months and unfortunately - some customers have definitely had enough and moved on.

VP

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: jaydeeee

Date:3/16/2006 2:50:51 PM

First, thank you to Ben for stating that. The "ok here" crap usually applies to those who barely use it on their way to opening their latest video game.

Thanks to Vocalpoint also for reminding sony and other users how things usually go down these days. "Lost customers already" is prob the more realistic truth. SFoundry had a decent (not great) track record in focusing on stability (1st key factor in any app), and then features. I'd like to see Sony adopt the same.

Thanks to forumadmin too for replying and listening:

Although, first...
If you're not reading forums by now - MAKE THIS A STICKY over there: START READING THEM. **Maybe point out to all users to put a keyword in the subject for any app related problems (crashing, etc - anything major func)?** That way you can list posts just by this keyword for each forum app.

I personally have no time for emailing back and forth (waiting until you read...wait for reply, try suggestions...email back...reminding/covering past details told, etc...ad nauseum). No time to call over and over again, etc.
The FORUM?...it's all there in a listing. Quicker and hard to NOT keep track of (that is unless MORONS chime in with unrelated and useless garbage, but that's not too often - especially if one states to not pull that crap).

#2:
I think I've stated my problems many times. Right now - THESE problems are way too random. What more can I say other than?
- unexpected crashing while running a batch (mp3 cnversion, cvrt mp3 to .wav, plugin processing not retaining settings or crash).
Esepcially when a crash (or two..or three later) the SAME BATCH process works thru just fine. How would one handle that? Please suggest.

#3.
I guess what I'm saying is...i'm in shock you're testing/test team(s) are NOT seeing any of these stability issues (espec in sf8 and it's batch cvrtr - the diff is night and day).
Can you describe your test scenarios please? i asked this once without reply. What systems you have, how many, which os's (roughly)?
I'm just curious to how you expect to repro some of these things..if you don't have the means to do so.

OK SO HERE'S THE INFO (AGAIN) ON MY FINDINGS FOR SF8b:


I now use an amd x2 4400+ (dual-core), 2gig ddr-400 ram (dual-ch), 1 250 gig sata, 3 ata ide, 1 benq dd dvd-r.

Motherboard: gigabyte K8NS ultra 939 (nforce 3 ultra chipset).

OS: WinXP Pro SP2, Installed AMD's dual-core driver (necessary) and all windows updates. Clean install (no repair or "upgrade" installs - ever).

Sound: TWO maudio delta-1010's (NOT the "LT" vers delta 1010's) using driver .48a (maudio's latest driver for all apps besides Ptools Mpowered).
* I use MME drivers for both vegas6 and forge 8.0b.

Note: I also experienced the same crashing behavior (batch cvrtr and some manual editing) with my P4 systems ( p4 2.4ghz/1gig ram, and a P4 3ghz/1gig ram).

USING YOUR NUMBER SCHEME FOR REPRO/FURTHER CLARIFICATION":

Problem: Random Crashing with sf8b batch cvrtr

(1) What happens?
- Too random to give exact repro, but when I'm cvting several (20-150) small (18sec-30 clips) to/from .mp3/.wav (and vice versa). mp3 to wav --> proj is cvting from mp3 to (for example) pcm 16bit 44,1khz mono, ms .wav.
*I do append a short name to the batch sometimes (e.g. - _44.1_mono, etc)
* prob can happen with or without metadata involved/checked

Sometimes the batch will work without a hitch, other random times...crash at any point (with a crash indicator - trying to get that and capture for you) . must close forge as it's frozen after crash.
Then a forge msg pops up stating it has crashed.
Close, make sure forge or any processes aren't running...restart forge....and the EXACT SAME batch setup will work fine (maybe after a crash or 3 at most).
Long shot guess...Possible mem leak? Problem with forge8b and amd x2 dual-core procs? Nvidia nforce 3 ultra chipset or it's drivers?

(a) Sound Forge goes Not Responding (with hourglass?).
- No usually a crash (talking batch cvrtr). Freeze (houglass) if crashing while editing manually - less freq than batch cvrtr, please note).

(b) Sound Forge actually crashes (and the dump says?)
- Trying to get the dump, msg goes away when trying to click in on it
- then another msg pops up saying it crashed, but no other info.

(c) Sound Forge just locks up with no feedback whatsoever.
Random crash, yes not much feedback. Still trying to get you a dump listing.

(2) What exact action immediately precedes it?
(a) hit Preview or Stop on a modal DirectX or VST effect (e.g. Effects->Chorus) (anything with the "Real-time" checkbox is this type)

- It's batching

(b) after OK'ing (processing) a modal DirectX or VST effect
(c) hit Preview or Stop on a native effect (e.g. Process->Volume)
(d) after OK'ing (processing) a native effect
(e) when previewing or processing the plug-in chainer
(f) when doing a cut/copy/paste operation
(g) when starting playback, record, or scrub
(h) other...

N/A - batching. Plug in chainer at most

(3) If applicable, what plug-in, set of plug-ins, or other effect?

- auto-trim simply doesn't work. Doesn't either retain plugin settings upon render, or somehting wrong with the plugin or sf8b batch
- add to this Ultrafunk and Sonitus (cakewalk ultrafunk) reverb will not retain it's settings either upon batching. Even if I save a preset in the plugin itself or set in batch cvrtr.
*** add to this in VEGAS6c and ultrafunk reverb - it's NOT retaining it's plugin settings when on the master bus (havn't checked it on simple tracks or busses). The rendered output sounds as if it reverted to it's default settings (you can hear right away it wasn't the verb setting monitored and set before render - seems to be the default verb setting. For example I'll reduce the verb output to aroun -28 or so, just a lil verb...but after render you can tell it's used the default and full vol verb setting).

Problem happens with Ultrafunks last release and new Sonitus (ultrafunks latest in sonar) across the board.

(4) What driver model and latency?
maudio delta 1010 (two units installed) using .27 and now .48a

(5) What file type and format?
Personal wok - usually 24-bit 44.1 stereo .wav, mixdowns, ac3 encoding, short run or single mp3 encoding, etc.

Some work media examples (where more crashes occur): mp3 of varied supported bitrates, lots of smaller (12-18 sec) .wav and .mp3. Mp3 mono bitrates range from 24kbps to 96kbps - all mono.
.wav usually are 16bit, 44.1 mono .wav (same smaller sizes)

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: kbruff

Date:3/17/2006 7:19:01 AM

I find that I need to have both apps -- WL6 and SSF8 hopefully I will have one tool for most needs.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: ForumAdmin

Date:3/17/2006 9:41:44 AM

For the Batch Converter crash:

(a) Can you please post the text of the crash dialog(s) you are seeing? I'm not sure I understand what you mean by it "goes away when you try to click on it", but if that is the case, it's very peculiar.
(b) Assuming the Status page is visible, is it possible to see which step was being executed at the time of the crash?
(c) Are the files you are converting already open in Sound Forge or do you add them manually inside Batch Converter?
(d) Are you interacting with the main Sound Forge window while Batch Converter is open? This shouldn't be possible, but we did find a hole that would allow you to do so, which could cause lots of unexpected results.

For Auto-Trim/Crop issues:

(a) Which preset (or settings)?
(b) Does it do what you expect when executed within Sound Forge?
(c) Does it behave differently from (b) when used from the Batch Converter?

(Note that when the file is already open, the Batch Converter does not pay attention to channel or time selections. It always operates on the entire file.)

For the Sonitus:fx issues:

(a) Were they included with a Sonar demo? (if so, they are limited to that)
(b) What is the plug-in version?
(c) Are you using their internal preset mechanism, saving chain packages, saving individual presets, or just moving controls?
(d) Does this occur with any other 3rd party DirectX plug-ins?

J.

Subject:RE: SF8 a live product?

Reply by: rraud

Date:3/17/2006 5:08:40 PM

Vocalpoint & Jaydeeee
Those are the most intelligent and articlulate posts I've seen here in a long time.. or.. since Red was banned.

I would go to Wavelab in a NY minute if I had the time to learn a new app., deadlines and all ... of coarse with the SF-8 lock-ups, I'm already on some clients' shit-list.