Subject:why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Posted by: matteo

Date:1/18/2000 8:38:00 AM

with soundforge is very easy to assign a note to the "play"
function, in that way i sync loopwave in soundforge to a
loop in cubase. I just add a simple midifile in cubase with
the triggering note at the beginning.
So easy and so cool!!
well with acid this function it is 1000 times useful
and...it lacks!!!!
X millions of user works loop by loop. they have to know in
advance if their loop "works" well into the sequence they
are editing with the sequencer. miditime code and midiclock
is complete unuseful when you loop. So midi triggering is
the right solution!!
(midi triggering is useful for many other applications...)

really i cannot enter in the programmer mind (as they cannot
enter in the musician mind)
the only explanation i find for that giant lack in acid is
that they don't want to build the program too perfect
otherwise there is no chance for future commercial
upgrade...
best regards
matteo

Subject:Re: why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/18/2000 5:33:00 PM

Admittedly, there are some limitation of the sync capabilities of
ACID and these will be addressed in future releases.

ACID is not a sample player, but a loop/sample sequencer. It is meant
to be the master and the arrangment not the reverse. Chasing to MTC
is more of a convienence for post work rather than a realtime
performance tool. Same with ACID generating MTC.

Having ACID generate MIDI Clock makes perfect sense as ACID is a
tempo based tool that works very well with external MIDI drum
machines or sequencers.

Do you want ACID to trigger or be triggered?

In any case, I can't see this as a high demand feature.

If you have an audio loop that you want to hear in context of the
ACID project, it is as easy as you can make it to hear it. Either
preview it in the explorer or drop it on a track. The most work you
have to do is to ACIDize the loop. If you want to trigger a MIDI
sequencer, then MIDI Clock will do this for you and provide tempo
information as well. Most sequencers have the ability to assign small
sections of MIDI as loops.

If you want ACID to chase to an external app, triggering would be
painful and limited at best. You would have no tempo information and
triggering would limit the functionality of ACID. Lot of excess
bagage if all ACID was going to do was to play a loop on a specific
MIDI note. Beside, there are other tools that are designed for this.

ACID plays from begining to end unless a loop region is defined. The
project looping feature of ACID is more about editing than as a
performance tool. (Though I have heard some use it like this.)

The idea of having ACID play triggered loops just doesn't make much
sense. Just not the point behind ACID.

But maybe I am missing something.

How would you use a triggering feature?
How would an ACID project/sequence be set up and integrated as you
want?

As far as us developers not being in the musicians mind...

I can say that many of the developers here at Sonic Foundry are
musicicans or are into the recording thing for fun and for profit. (I
fall into the I do it for fun catagory.)

The architect of ACID is a musician big time and with the exception
of one developer I can't think of any of us that don't play, record,
or at least dabble with performance or recording. I know that a
number of the guys here are at the studio session player level of
performance with their chosen instrument(s).

They just couldn't make any money at it so they became developers.

Peter



matteo wrote:
>>with soundforge is very easy to assign a note to the "play"
>>function, in that way i sync loopwave in soundforge to a
>>loop in cubase. I just add a simple midifile in cubase with
>>the triggering note at the beginning.
>>So easy and so cool!!
>>well with acid this function it is 1000 times useful
>>and...it lacks!!!!
>>X millions of user works loop by loop. they have to know in
>>advance if their loop "works" well into the sequence they
>>are editing with the sequencer. miditime code and midiclock
>>is complete unuseful when you loop. So midi triggering is
>>the right solution!!
>>(midi triggering is useful for many other applications...)
>>
>>really i cannot enter in the programmer mind (as they cannot
>>enter in the musician mind)
>>the only explanation i find for that giant lack in acid is
>>that they don't want to build the program too perfect
>>otherwise there is no chance for future commercial
>>upgrade...
>>best regards
>>matteo

Subject:Re: why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Reply by: matteo

Date:1/19/2000 8:49:00 AM

Well, first of all i want to say thank for the very quick answer!!
about the general mood of my question, sorry i didn't want to offense
anyone, but it simply was frustrating
to me seeing a SO GOOD program like acid that needs only a very small
feauture to become a
REAL PROFESSIONAL TOOL for many of us!!
But from your answer, Peter, i see i was not enough clear and that you
maybe never get the point!!

sorry i tried to be as brief as possible because i know people on the
web like question like this, now i will try to explain myself better.

Ok you say Acid is conceived more as a stand-alone program. It's
true: it is surely possible to make good songs with acid only.
This is especially suitable for multimedia market and for the hobby
musicians
But sincerely i don't know many electronic pro musicians that make
music only with acid as a sequencer.
98% of them still use midi sequencing and hardware (samplers, synth..)
to make music.
Acid is used mainly to stretch and adjust loops in the perfect way to
use it later in the sampler (or in cubase vst or logic audio..)
But for this use (trust me: very popular!)there is the need to sync in
some way the loop in acid with the loop in the midi sequencer.
Right now i do this sync manually (by ear) i just press play in the
sequencer (BTW i use 2 computer one is for midi sequencing, the other
for audio..)
and the at the right moment i press play in acid: So i can hear if the
stretched and adjusted loop (for example breakbeat snares) musicially
fits with the sequenced midi
(for example bass, synthpads, kickdrum)
The feature i need is just this: a midi remote control for Acid to
allow assignement of a midi note (or controller) to the "play" command
in Acid.
This easy feauture is already available in Soundforge!!!
With this i can just synchronize the start of the programs but is
enough for editing !!!

Let's imagine now that i decide to build a song completely in Acid: it
would be nice anyway to create a midisequenced bass from my
nordlead+cubasis, then record it and add it in Acid
But how can i build this sequence without syncing to the loops in
acid?. I just have to create the bass before and imagine it will fits
well in acid with the percussions. Again it's just a problem of a
better loop editing, not final mastering!
Well i hope i was clear enough...
trust me this very simple feature (already available in Soundforge)
will be very popular in the Pro market once the people understand what
they can do with...

thanks
matteo

Peter Haller wrote:
>>Admittedly, there are some limitation of the sync capabilities of
>>ACID and these will be addressed in future releases.
>>
>>ACID is not a sample player, but a loop/sample sequencer. It is
meant
>>to be the master and the arrangment not the reverse. Chasing to MTC
>>is more of a convienence for post work rather than a realtime
>>performance tool. Same with ACID generating MTC.
>>
>>Having ACID generate MIDI Clock makes perfect sense as ACID is a
>>tempo based tool that works very well with external MIDI drum
>>machines or sequencers.
>>
>>Do you want ACID to trigger or be triggered?
>>
>>In any case, I can't see this as a high demand feature.
>>
>>If you have an audio loop that you want to hear in context of the
>>ACID project, it is as easy as you can make it to hear it. Either
>>preview it in the explorer or drop it on a track. The most work you
>>have to do is to ACIDize the loop. If you want to trigger a MIDI
>>sequencer, then MIDI Clock will do this for you and provide tempo
>>information as well. Most sequencers have the ability to assign
small
>>sections of MIDI as loops.
>>
>>If you want ACID to chase to an external app, triggering would be
>>painful and limited at best. You would have no tempo information and
>>triggering would limit the functionality of ACID. Lot of excess
>>bagage if all ACID was going to do was to play a loop on a specific
>>MIDI note. Beside, there are other tools that are designed for this.
>>
>>ACID plays from begining to end unless a loop region is defined. The
>>project looping feature of ACID is more about editing than as a
>>performance tool. (Though I have heard some use it like this.)
>>
>>The idea of having ACID play triggered loops just doesn't make much
>>sense. Just not the point behind ACID.
>>
>>But maybe I am missing something.
>>
>>How would you use a triggering feature?
>>How would an ACID project/sequence be set up and integrated as you
>>want?
>>
>>As far as us developers not being in the musicians mind...
>>
>>I can say that many of the developers here at Sonic Foundry are
>>musicicans or are into the recording thing for fun and for profit.
(I
>>fall into the I do it for fun catagory.)
>>
>>The architect of ACID is a musician big time and with the exception
>>of one developer I can't think of any of us that don't play, record,
>>or at least dabble with performance or recording. I know that a
>>number of the guys here are at the studio session player level of
>>performance with their chosen instrument(s).
>>
>>They just couldn't make any money at it so they became
developers.
>>
>>Peter
>>
>>
>>
>>matteo wrote:
>>>>with soundforge is very easy to assign a note to the "play"
>>>>function, in that way i sync loopwave in soundforge to a
>>>>loop in cubase. I just add a simple midifile in cubase with
>>>>the triggering note at the beginning.
>>>>So easy and so cool!!
>>>>well with acid this function it is 1000 times useful
>>>>and...it lacks!!!!
>>>>X millions of user works loop by loop. they have to know in
>>>>advance if their loop "works" well into the sequence they
>>>>are editing with the sequencer. miditime code and midiclock
>>>>is complete unuseful when you loop. So midi triggering is
>>>>the right solution!!
>>>>(midi triggering is useful for many other applications...)
>>>>
>>>>really i cannot enter in the programmer mind (as they cannot
>>>>enter in the musician mind)
>>>>the only explanation i find for that giant lack in acid is
>>>>that they don't want to build the program too perfect
>>>>otherwise there is no chance for future commercial
>>>>upgrade...
>>>>best regards
>>>>matteo

Subject:Re: why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/19/2000 11:36:00 AM

You didn't offend. How could you offend me. I don't even know you. I
am discussing this with you. You know, give and take, convince me or
I will convince you....

I hear what you want. I "get the point".

So, to the point...

Having ACID start playback on a MIDI note, or event is fine. Just
like you can assign note commands to control most transport functions
of Forge or other sequencers. A feature like this is reasonable. Then
you can trigger ACID starts/stops with a sequencer. Basic and
configurable external transport control and control surface
automation is planned for a future release.

The other approach...
Having ACID trigger specific loops on specific MIDI events - is not
what ACID is about. Analogous to the Triggering of regions/playlists
in Forge.

I am not saying it is a bad idea or not useful, but just a bad fit
for ACID and what ACID does. Would required a different User
Interface than that which exists. A nice concept for a different tool
that uses ACID technology or perhaps a merge of ACID looping
technology with Forge.

I understand how tools don't integrate the way you want them to. But
you also have to remember that a tool like ACID was desgined to be a
stand alone, do what it does and do it well, application. I assure
you that there are more ACID users that use it just this way then any
other way. Sync, triggering, etc are add ons. As I said, ACID was
always meant to be the master, not the slave. For technical reasons
this had to be the case.

Off subject....

You can answer a question for me:

Why is it you REAL PROFESSIONALS always try to guilt us into doing
something that you want by telling us that it would make ACID or our
other software REAL, or PROFESSIONAL, "not just a toy", or SERIOUS?

Do you really think this approach makes what you have to say any more
valid than the corporate , home pro-sumer, or simple hobbiest ACID
user that has an idea or different need?

By definition, since you - being a REAL PROFESSIONAL - use ACID at
all on any REAL PROFESSIONAL project - makes ACID a REAL
PROFESSIONAL's tool. Title by association applies here I think.

How many REAL PROFESSIONALS have to use ACID before it becomes a REAL
PROFESSIONAL TOOL. ("How many REAL PROFESSIONALS does it take to
screw in a light bulb?" might be a better question.)

Don't get me wrong, I love the ideas and suggestions I get to read
and discuss with users. (Ok, maybe I don't love them all, but I love
the fact that I get to hear so many.) This is how products improve
and this is why I hang out in the forums.

We do listen and the idea is what counts, not the vocation of the
source of the idea.

Peter

Subject:Re: why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Reply by: matteo

Date:1/19/2000 7:19:00 PM

Peter Haller wrote:

>>I hear what you want. I "get the point".
>>
>>So, to the point...
>>
>>Having ACID start playback on a MIDI note, or event is fine. Just
>>like you can assign note commands to control most transport
functions
>>of Forge or other sequencers. A feature like this is reasonable.
Then
>>you can trigger ACID starts/stops with a sequencer. Basic and
>>configurable external transport control and control surface
>>automation is planned for a future release

exactly!!
i hope this will be done!!
you will see how much people will like this feature!!!
For the moment i've tried to look for other solution but without
result. It is possible to trigger play in cubase with a midinote but
unfortunately acid cannot send any note!! i am looking for the way to
starts the 2 program at the same moment..!!
any idea?

about the "real professionist" subject...well you're right!!!
mainly i think i tried to attract the attention of someone of the SF
stuff with a small provocations .. sorry but it is now clear that this
approach is not at all necessary!!

So what i just mean is that this feature would be very nice for
everyone who use Acid not as a standalone music program but as a tool
together with sequencer and hardware studio...


thanks for the help

matteo

Subject:Re: why not midi triggering in acid ???????

Reply by: pwppch

Date:1/19/2000 8:20:00 PM

>>exactly!!
>>i hope this will be done!!
>>you will see how much people will like this feature!!!
>>For the moment i've tried to look for other solution but without
>>result. It is possible to trigger play in cubase with a midinote
but
>>unfortunately acid cannot send any note!! i am looking for the way
to
>>starts the 2 program at the same moment..!!
>>any idea?
>>

No, not really. We eventually will have MMC and simple control
integration as I discussed. It will be definable as well as support
the big boy toys - i.e. HUI, JLCooper, etc.

The best way to preview this kind of thing would be to use Forge.
Have Vegas render the loop at the correct tempo and then open that in
Forge. You can then use Forge's trigger functionality to audition the
loop. Not a seemless solution, but it would give you the triggering
solution.

>>about the "real professionist" subject...well you're right!!!
>>mainly i think i tried to attract the attention of someone of the
SF
>>stuff with a small provocations .. sorry but it is now clear that
this
>>approach is not at all necessary!!
>>
>>So what i just mean is that this feature would be very nice for
>>everyone who use Acid not as a standalone music program but as a
tool
>>together with sequencer and hardware studio...
>>
>>

.
I know what you are saying. I just get this so much I guess I
snapped. ACID - as well as all our products - get used in so many
different ways it that it is hard for us to be everything to
everybody. We try to make the tools as flexible as possible, but we
can't be the swiss army knife like Forge is.

Peter