Subject:Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Posted by: talkshow

Date:8/27/2008 5:24:32 PM

Hey everyone,

I'm running into a new problem and am looking for advice. I've been using Sound Forge for a couple of years now to maximize my MP3 files, edit them, clean up the ID3 tag info and then save them.

My issue is with the bit-rate my MP3s are now being saved as. It used to work this way: I'd open a 320 kbps MP3 file in SF, edit it or change the ID3 tag information, trim off any dead space before the track begins or after it ends, then "Save" it. The file would retain it's original bitrate then (i.e. a 320 kbps saves as a 320 kbps file.)

Now: I'm making some edits to a track and when I click "Save" (NOT "Save as.." mind you) -- it seems to be saving the file at a lesser kbps and the quality drops a bit. Perfect example: I had a 12 meg 192 kbps song, trimmed it, saved it and it then became 9 meg, variable 160/128 kbps file.

I'm not sure what's going on now. I uninstalled and reinstalled Sound Forge (9.0e) and the same behavior is happening.

MY GOAL: to edit / clean up an MP3 track and then save it as the NATIVE kbps the track originally was in.

Help!

Thanks.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/27/2008 6:34:46 PM

Sound Forge doesn't keep track of this. Unless you specifically pick a bit rate, Sound Forge will use the bitrate from the last save operation. Go into Custom and pick the bitrate you want and then saves will be at this bitrate from then on out.

Generally i'll pick all the settings i want for bitrate, quality, channels, common ID tags, etc. and save this as a template. I have one for church recordings for the web, one for CD rips, one for archiving, etc. I always make sure to set the correct template when i start each session.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:8/27/2008 8:11:29 PM

**Sound Forge doesn't keep track of this. Unless you specifically pick a bit rate, Sound Forge will use the bitrate from the last save operation. Go into Custom and pick the bitrate you want and then saves will be at this bitrate from then on out.**

Yup, couldn't have said it better.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: talkshow

Date:8/28/2008 11:20:34 AM

Well I could have sworn it somehow saved each file correctly without my custom template before.

The reason I ask this is because I get a lot of music tracks off of the Internet and they are all different bitrates. How can I find out what bitrate each track is so I save it in the correct corresponding bitrate the file originally came in?

Thanks.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: rraud

Date:8/28/2008 11:53:56 AM

" save in the corresponding bitrate the file originally came in."
I fail to understand why this would matter? I assume your aware of every time you save or re-save an MP3, quality is sacrificed to some degree.
It's been frequently pointed out, saving as an MP3 should be the absolute final step. If further editing or format conversion is anticipated, the original file should be backed-up, or saved, in a lossless format. With the cost of drives so low, backing-up should not be much of an issue.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/28/2008 2:52:41 PM

Matching the original bitrate doesn't really count for much at all. There's nothing magic about matching the bitrate. It's still being uncompressed and recompressed no matter what bitrates are used. If the object is to retain quality then save with the highest bitrate that you have room for. Note however that just because you save with a higher bitrate than the original doesn't make the file sound better. A 160kbps file resaved at 128kbps will sound better than a 32kbps file resaved at 256kbps. However, a 32kbps resaved at 256kbps will sound better than a 32kbps file resaved at 32kbps, but it will still be worse than the original 32kbps file was before resaving it.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: talkshow

Date:8/28/2008 11:35:09 PM

I just want to make sure I don't up the bitrate of the original file when I save. I can't really make 256 kpbs the default bit rate save because I get files which as 192kps up to 320kps. I swear Sound Forge used to save the file in the original bitrate just by clicking "Save" instead of "Save As...." when you are finished editing it....am I wrong?

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Larry Clifford

Date:8/29/2008 3:21:45 AM

Just to add to rraud's comment about MP3 files, read this - http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=3&MessageID=542541

See the post on 9/1/2007 8:02 PM for comments from Kennymusicman. This is where I learned about the problem.

I am no expert on Sound Forge, but I learn a lot from this forum.

Larry

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/29/2008 3:51:56 AM

I've never seen Sound Forge be aware of the bitrate of the original file. It always saves at the bitrate of the current template, no matter what the original was or whether you use save or save as.

I'd say your goal of saving as the "native" bitrate is misguided. Your goal should be to work with an uncompressed version right from the start and wait until after you've done all the tweaking to do the first save as MP3.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: talkshow

Date:8/30/2008 2:26:42 PM

I see your point Chienworks but all of the MP3 music tracks I get off the 'net are compressed already to whatever bitrate they may be in. I usually get tracks from 192kps to 256kps usually.

If I save a 192kps track as 256kps -- does that distort the track? or will it sound the same as just 192kps?

thanks.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/30/2008 5:06:54 PM

No matter what bitrate you save it at, you'll lose some quality with each save. You'll lose less if you save it at 256 than if you save it at 192, but it's still going to be worse than the original 192.

Saving at the original bitrate won't make it better just because it's the same bitrate. The file is always expanded and recompressed.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:8/30/2008 8:42:22 PM

The usual workflow for mp3's, as was explained earlier, and has been referred to in many posts, is to open the mp3 and IMMEDIATELY save it as .wav

The, EACH time you open the .wav to work on it or edit it, save it AGAIN as a .wav
That way, you lose nothing, no matter how many times you save it.

Then, when you are satisfied with the result and desire an edited mp3, save the edited .wav as mp3 at its original bitrate.

Trust the process.

Subject:RE: Saving MP3s and bitrate issues....

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:8/31/2008 5:51:35 AM

If you're only making one adjustment/resave then saving it as .wav isn't going to gain anything at all. You'll still have the final save to .mp3 which will recompress the audio. The only time that using a .wav intermediate file helps is if you're going to be making multiple open/adjust/edit/resave cycles. I get the feeling that talkshow is just making one single adjustment and saving.

And, once again, matching the original bitrate doesn't help retain the original quality just because it's the same bitrate. Every save loses some quality even when you use the same bitrate.