Subject:Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Posted by: Alf Hanna

Date:12/6/2010 10:31:47 AM

I've got to record in a room with hard surfaces, and won't be able to totally remove the slight 'presence' echo. Is there a specific setting to play with in the EQ or some other setting that will help offset this echo in post? I realize that shooting in a real sound room is best, but that's not possible.

Any help is appreciated.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: roblesinge

Date:12/6/2010 12:08:17 PM

You can't really remove echo once it's printed. You can do some careful muting, but that might sound stilted. Unfortunately, recording in a treated room is the only way to avoid echo.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:12/6/2010 12:29:45 PM

In a room, there is very little you can do except use cardioid mic, keep it close to the talent, pointed away from reflective surfaces, and dip out any room resonance frequency in post.

The echo reduction technique I posted several years back absolutely will not work with early reflections.

IIWY, I would insist on relocation, not using talking heads, or voiceovers instead.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: Alf Hanna

Date:12/6/2010 1:29:46 PM

Thanks, yes, we canceled the shoot today and are moving to a much more acoustically softened room.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:12/6/2010 2:46:44 PM

It's surprising sometimes how easy it is to deaden a room. Hanging up everyone's jackets/coats around the room makes a huge difference.

I had to do a live show in a gymnasium and i asked everyone in the band and crew to bring a blanket with them. We got about a dozen. I duct-taped them up in a few places around the room and echoes died out markedly and reverberation dropped from 8 seconds down to 1. It made the difference between complete mush and actually being able to understand the words.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:12/6/2010 2:52:01 PM

When I was taping auditions on location, we carried a couple of soft office partitions in the van, about 5'x6'. Made a lot of difference, but hardly an inspiring background.

Hint: Don't use a stereo video mic if there is going to be any splatback.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: Alf Hanna

Date:12/6/2010 10:01:09 PM

Thanks. I was going to use a lav mic. And the idea for the panels is superb,and likely cheap. As to coats, the room was too big, but a good idea anyway.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: rraud

Date:12/7/2010 7:19:51 AM

As was previously stated by my knowledgeable forum compatriots, 'deaden' the room with anything plush you can find. And no, you can't remove early reflections in post.
Use a lavaliere and/or a hyper-cardioid boom mic If using both put them on separate tracks and choose the better or the two in post.
DO NOT use a shotgun mic in a highly reflective environment.
A head-worn mic may work if you do not mind seeing it onscreen.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: WayneM

Date:12/30/2010 10:54:54 AM

Great input from Chienworks!

We all see people looking for technical solutions when what is really needed is a good training/mentoring in the basics of production and pre-production. (Not to 'dis' those smart enough to actually ask an intelligent question in this forum before they proceed!) I'm pleased to see an alternate venue is now in the mix.


While technology can perform what sometimes seems like miracles, we still need to do the work right in the first place.

I have a related challenge coming up. I piano virtuoso who will be united with an amazing concert grand piano that is over 100 years old (the piano that is) and beautifully resotred and an incredible sounding instrument. (Just because an instrument is old doesn't make it good sounding, let alone great like this one.)

The challenge is that the piano is in a very live venue. Three two story hard walls, hard ceiling, and a fourth wall that is about 80% GLASS. Hardwood floors and relatively "spartan" furnishings and > 1,000 sq. ft. Unfortunately, the piano can't be relocated for the recording. Any suggestions beyond what I'm doing greatly appreciated.

I have 24 available HD audio tracks and a studio mic assortment that will be used to cover four or more classic concert grand piano sound capture schemes so I will have many options in post-production. I'll also capture some further ambient sound.

To manage some of the liveness (now there's an understatement!) I'm rigging up some home-brew Gobos using modified lighting stands with cross bars from which I'll hang furniture moving pads. This may end up looking like an encampment for homeless, even more so since I'm re-purposing some high-strength aluminum poles from a defunct large tent as cross pieces :-) I'm going to see if I can get some stills and video shot during the recording session if nothing more than to give some folks a great laugh at this jury-rigged setup.

So, if anyone has had to face a similar situation and has thoughts, please let me know. Some of the mics will be set in over the strings and a couple will be closer to the hammers to capture some of the percussive sound on the jazz (think McCoy Tyner) numbers. I also like mikes in the more classic location to capture the sound as reflected by the lid from a few feet in front.

It's cold up here, so the winter coats idea may also get put into play!

Happy New Year!

Wayne

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:12/30/2010 11:25:10 AM

Wayne,
You may be overcompensating a bit here, although I admire your thoroughness.

-- Putting a nice rug under the instrument and talent will make a world of difference. Make it wide enough to accommodate the mic stands (below).

-- Point a single SM81 slightly up at the underside of the raised lid from a distance of about 2 feet, more or less depending on room acoustics. You can dip out some of the brightness in post, or even use an SM57 (not as good). You must use something that will handle high transient SPLs.

-- An alternative is a PCC/PZM boundary mic taped to rubber on the lip of the case. Again, the result will be a very bright, but accurate reproduction.

-- For stereo ambience, an X-Y (Rode or Zoom H4) about 6-10 feet back, again depending on room characteristics, will do the trick. You can point another mic back if you want more audience response, ducking it way down in post during the actual program.

-- Anything more than that, and you will be dealing with phase crossing, which can have some rather strange effects considering the wide tonal and harmonic range of a grand piano in a "live" room. Multiple mic arrays are generally reserved for acoustically controlled studio and small performance settings.
Again, less is more in an acoustically reflective environment.

-- Acoustic baffling upstage, as mentioned, will help, but it need not be a solid wall. Just breaking up the reflections will be enough. Do as I do, and borrow a few office cubicle partitions, and project your gobos onto that if desired (is it really necessary?).

Dipping down, but not eliminating room resonant frequencies from the stereo / ambient track in post will be your first task back at your DAW.

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: WayneM

Date:12/31/2010 12:44:23 PM

Me? Overcompensate? :-)

Thanks for the ideas, many of which will be in the mix.

I wasn't clear that I won't be mixing together multiple mics, but would like a lot of source options to "play" with in some post experimentation. With so many channels and not having to buy tape anymore, I like to have some options in post. All my mics are good quality, R0DE NT1's, and NT-4 coincident that mostly gets used for drumkit overheads but might get repurposed. I've used that R0DE as you mentioned and been quite pleased once I find the right distance back for a balance with room ambiance. I only have 1 of the NT-4s. I also have a number of AKG 1000s and a couple Studio Projects C3s.

I've used the PZM of the lid in one session before, but wasn't all that pleased with the sound from the specific Steinway grand I used it on compared with the other mic tracks. Also, the piano in the upcoming session is a 9'4" 100+ year old concert grand that has been meticulously restored, and is valued in the mid $300k range. I don't think I want to attach anything to this one :-)

If I had access to some of those cubicle partitions they would work great. Those things, at least the ones I have experience with, are really heavy.

After the first recording we are working on a jazz trio w/o vocalist at least to start.

Thanks for the input. I'm looking to an interesting session.

Cheers!

Subject:RE: Recording in hard surfaced rooms...

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:12/31/2010 2:46:17 PM

The lingering question for me is, with all the great ideas and (presumably) talent, why are you stuck in such a clunky room?