Subject:correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Posted by: dpdrums

Date:7/23/2011 10:05:09 PM

i'm recording live shows/concerts. however even though my mic is good, as is the recorder, which is digital, and records in linear pcm. i'm having phase issues with the lows arriving to the mic mili-seconds before the highs.
the result is out of phase sound, causing certain frequencies to be blocked, and the sound to suffer.
how can i correct this problem with the available tools in sound forge audio studio 9.d.
thank you in advance

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: ChristoC

Date:7/23/2011 10:38:21 PM

> ..... phase issues with the lows arriving to the mic mili-seconds before the highs.

That is a highly unusual problem, which would appear to ignore the laws of Physics; how did you arrive at that diagnosis?

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 12:25:06 PM

THE HIGH WAVES BEING SMALLER REACH THE MIC MOMENTS BEHIND THE LARGER WAVES OF THE LOWS. PHASE ISSUES CORRUPT THE RECORDING.
SO THERE IS A MILLI-SECOND DELAY IN THE 2 FREQUENCIES REACHING THE MIC.
A SOUND ENGINEER CONFIRMED THIS IS WHY THE RECORDING ON THE DIGITAL DEVISE IS NOT UP TO PAR. ANALOG I UNDERSTAND DOESN'T HAVE THIS CONDITION.
I APPLY EQ TO THE .WAV FILE, AND CAN GET THE BASS TO SOUND AS IT DOES, AND THE VOCALS NICE AND CRISP, BUT THE DRUMS GET LOST IN MUSH. I'M HAVING TROUBLE MASTERING IT SO ALL SOUNDS ARE PRESENT.
IS THERE A FILTER OR PLUG-IN I'M MISSING IN SF9 THAT WILL BRING EVERYTHING TOGETHER, AND LOOSE THE MUSH?
THANKS FOR THE RESPONSE...
I'M RECORDING IN A LARGE ROOM/ARENA, BEHIND THE SOUND BOARD.
USING A OLYMPUS DIGITAL DEVISE, WITH A SONY XY STEREO MIC.

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:7/24/2011 1:04:14 PM

ALL CAPS POSTING IS CONSIDERED GENERALLY UNNECESSARY ON THESE FORUMS.

You are possibly getting a tiny bit of phase differential from the x-y mic configuration, but not delay distortion.

Acoustic delay distortion does not occur from a stationary source in air or uncharged gas medium, from everything I remember from college acoustics courses. http://physics.info/sound/ It is also unheard of in modern electronic transmission. Your theory that it is digital but not analog in nature sounds 100% backwards.

If you have an exact recording of a reference wideband audio source, a matrix could be extrapolated to compensate (somewhat) for HF delay in say, a very long analog run (several miles in fact) or an AM radio signal.

You cannot do something like this in Sound Forge as it lacks the necessary analysis tools. Good luck.

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: rraud

Date:7/24/2011 2:53:47 PM

Without getting into the technicalities, your description sounds like a simple case of improper mic placement and/or choice.
If you post a sample, we'll give it a listen, though, aside from EQ there's not a heck of a lot that can be done. Sorry.

Addendum, My eyes ain't what they used to be, but I can still read without all UPPERCASE characters.

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 3:32:45 PM

hi everyone,
my most humble apologies for the uppercase post. i was working with uppercase print, and forgot to turn it off, after i'd typed a bunch, i just left it on, rather than retype. i didn't know it was discouraged. i meant no disrespect.
i'm grateful for the input, thanks to all who have share their wisdom.
yes i can post a clip of the original .wav recording. as soon as i figure out how to do that i'll give you all a listen.
again, thank you
post script, my eyes aren't what they used to be either, thank goodness for reading glasses.

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 3:40:11 PM

hi,
sorry, i don't mean to be a pest, how do i attach a sound clip to a post here?

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 4:03:42 PM

http://dpdrums.com/sample/sample.wav

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:7/24/2011 6:41:36 PM

You see, that's the kind of FOH recording I would use as the rear track in a 5.1 surround mix.

You need to grab your main stereo mix from the board as a sub; it will be too dry, so mix in a little of your ambient recording, remembering to dip the room resonant frequency. Will result in some great live recordings, but it takes practice.

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 6:56:44 PM

true enough, if only i had a board access. i'm just a guy in the audience. i suspect a hi-end out fit, and being in the taper section would get me closer to the qwuality i'm looking for.
however a tap into the board would be the ultimate, along with the room for the 5.1 mix as you suggested.
btw, what's FOH stand for?
again, i am truly grateful to you for your time and brains.
thank you

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: musicvid10

Date:7/24/2011 7:18:12 PM

i'm recording live shows/concerts. I'M RECORDING IN A LARGE ROOM/ARENA, BEHIND THE SOUND BOARD.

Woops, I thought you were associated with the venue, not bootlegging.
As an event producer working in licensed facilities, unfortunately I will not be able to help you further.
I, rraud, and Christo make a portion of our livings doing event recordings professionally. Speaking only for me, that presents a COI.
Best of luck though.

{FOH = Front of House)

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: dpdrums

Date:7/24/2011 9:52:53 PM

FYI the band i record, encourages taping, it is not, repeat NOT, bootlegging. also, it's for personal use. i make no effort to make profit.
the folks from phil lesh, further, dead, all the remaining members of the grateful dead, allow recording of their live shows.
just so you know, i'm not doing anything that hurts anyone.
so please don't feel you've taken part in any wrong doing.
peace

Subject:RE: correcting out of phase record issues, HELP PLEASE

Reply by: rraud

Date:7/25/2011 8:59:09 AM

I concur with MV. "I would use as the rear track in a 5.1 surround mix" to add a 'life' to an 'off the board' mix, 5.1 or otherwise. By itself, 'it is what it is' and there's little you can do with it to add presence.... Sorry.
Maybe network with other 'tapers' if anyone was fortunate enough to get a feed from FOH or a close to stage stereo pair.