OT: Suggestions for ATV Shooting on TV show

FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/1/2013, 11:32 PM
Hey guys,

I'm working with a company who is doing a start-up TV show and I'm in charge of basically everything video and photo, the show is a televised obstacle series. Anyway, we have one of our cams who's rolling with the race leader, and he's going to be on an ATV. We're running a Panasonic AC-160 and I'm trying to figure out the best way to rig this guys camera up to shoot, and I've had a couple ideas that I'd like feedback on or other thoughts if you are willing to offer them...

1. Glidecam X-10 Smoothshooter rig - most expensive and really should have a pretty experienced smoothshooter operator.
2. just a glidecam w/o the smoothshooter rig ( less expensive, may be unreasonable to expect of a shooter for 25-40 min while riding an ATV)
3. a Shouldermount rig - lowest cost, least amount of exp needed by operator, may make problems with how we're going to secure the operator to the atv.
Etc...

Any other thoughts or ideas you guys may have would be appreciated, thanks :)

Dave

(oh, and in-case anyone is wondering, they were already locked into adobe suite, but their Closed captioning is terrible compared to Vegas with Caption Assistant from VASST so I'm definately running Vegas Pro in as well, and props to Vegas for CC workflow and file embedding)

Comments

farss wrote on 2/1/2013, 11:49 PM
If you had the budget a Russian Arm on an ATV would get you some amazing footage.

I'm not so certain a Smoothshooter or any such device is going to help, heck might even make matters worse. From my feeble attempts at using a Steadycam I quickly realised the limitations of the system, once you exceed them things go out of control and the camera goes all over the place and it takes a while to get it back under control. On an ATV, depending on the terrain and speed things could be going wrong a lot. Also I'd worry about motion sickness.

Take a look at some of the promo footage for the Russian Arm, it'll give you an inkling of what's required to do what you seem to want to do. Work back from that towards what you can afford but I would be reluctant to recommend anything less than active gyro stabilization. You can get that in some pretty cheap cameras these days and it doesn't seem to lose the plot easily.

I'd also add for a start-up get it right at the get go, then see if you can par the budget back. First impressions count for a lot.

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 2/2/2013, 1:44 AM
forget it . .

farss wrote on 2/2/2013, 2:16 AM
OK, but what is racing through the obstacle course?
People, cars, horses?
I'd assumed cars hence the ATV to keep up, if people everything changes except is it a closed course or cross country?

Bob.
Grazie wrote on 2/2/2013, 2:48 AM
ATV=All Terrain Vehicle [?].

So my link "sux".

G

farss wrote on 2/2/2013, 5:11 AM
Yeah ATV = All Terrain Vehicle.
No "sux", much to learn. Lots of cameras, lots of heavy metal.
The human interest isn't just in the winner in any race, car, human or horse.
That's why you need all those cameras, coverage for the editor.

To be blunt, one camera on the back of an ATV, regardless of what it's in front of running would have me changing channels quick smart.

Bob.

.
rs170a wrote on 2/2/2013, 6:00 AM
Buy 3 or 4 Go Pros and rig them with one on the driver or passenger and the rest on the ATV.

Mike
richard-amirault wrote on 2/2/2013, 10:23 AM
Just so I understand:

You will have a camerman as a passenger on an ATV shooting the lead person in the obstacle course as he/she races thru each obstacle.

The ATV will likely be to the side of the course and NOT on smooth pavement.

You want to get the best / smoothest shots you can.
Grazie wrote on 2/2/2013, 10:57 AM
Hire-A-Helo....

FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/2/2013, 12:52 PM
Without wanting to divulge too much of what we've developed for the TV show side of things...

We are following people on foot racing an obstacle course that will be between 4-6 miles long with 2 dozen or so obstacles. Camera operators will be at the different obstacles and about 3 dozen gopro's etc... our budget is pretty well fixed from startup capital, we're looking to have a person riding in the ATV from the side/front following the lead action the entire time. I'm trying to determine what we want to use for that camera's support system. This will be a hauling ATV not a speed or racing ATV.

I've looked at gyro stabilized heads, but the cost was somewhat prohibitive to purchase and there still wasn't a good vibration reduction solution in that sort of scenario.

I've looked into heli (or possibly even quadcam ) shooting, but I would like to use that for more grand scale shots and the like.

Thanks for the help so far, keep it coming if you have any suggestions.
larry-peter wrote on 2/2/2013, 1:14 PM
The aesthetics of the overall production would dictate the decision of course, but have you considered a halo-type stabilizer such as a FigRig? Given the camera you're using and the other stationary camera coverage available, a stabilizer of that sort would give you the "in-the-middle-of-the-action" shots with a hand held feel, while providing a buffer from the ride vibration. If you're looking for the ATV shots to be Stedicam smooth, not an option, but it could provide a nice look for the perspective the ATV gives.
farss wrote on 2/2/2013, 2:06 PM
"I've looked at gyro stabilized heads, but the cost was somewhat prohibitive to purchase and there still wasn't a good vibration reduction solution in that sort of scenario."

Have you looked at the Tyler Minigyro?
http://www.tylerminigyro.com/

The variant with a "pogo stick" might do the job or hang the camera + gyro off a bungee cord.

Vibration is pretty easy to wangle, it's the really big movements of the vehicle that are the problem if you want tight tracking shots.

Bob.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/3/2013, 12:31 AM
That minigyro with a piston might just be what I want to go for... Thanks Bob.

Not sure if we're going to buy or rent, but either way it's better than the gyro system we had looked at previously.

Dave
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/4/2013, 10:53 PM
well, 15K+ is a little steep on our budget right now as well, but we're looking int o some options. The more I look at these things, the more I think it might not be too hard to build one that does well and custom make some housing for around 3-5K for the size and weight of camera we're looking to use. I'll have to see.

Dave
farss wrote on 2/5/2013, 12:09 AM
"well, 15K+ is a little steep on our budget right now as well, but we're looking int o some options"

Nothing made by Tyler is cheap.

Can you not rent one?

The problem with rigging something yourself is the cost of the gyros. I think they use Kenlabs gyros which are not that expensive but by the time all the other parts are made up.

There are a few owner operators.

Bob.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/5/2013, 4:17 PM
The idea I think we're going to look at is a figrig with a ken-labs.com 4x4 in the space between the cam and the bottom of the figrig and then a bungie attachment at the top to help reduce gitter on a support pole fo the ATV Mule. Instead of the locking piston bottom. But that all depends on how well we can do with a figrig attached to a support w/o a gyro on the bottom ( FAR cheaper :) ).

Dave
farss wrote on 2/5/2013, 5:24 PM
"But that all depends on how well we can do with a figrig attached to a support w/o a gyro on the bottom ( FAR cheaper :) )."

Definately worth a test. Not only are those gyros expensive, they need power and they get hot. Also by design the camera becomes difficult to move.

Bob.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/18/2013, 11:05 PM
well, we ended up choosing to go with an X-10 glidecam rig and vehicle mount.

Thanks for all the help folks.

Dave
farss wrote on 2/18/2013, 11:46 PM
"we ended up choosing to go with an X-10 glidecam rig and vehicle mount."

Footage, we need to see some footage.

Before that though, one word of caution and sorry if it's obvious.
Be aware that many vehicles with the rear door / window open will suck exhaust fumes into the cabin. Carbon monoxide is a silent killer.

Bob.
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 2/19/2013, 12:26 AM
We're riding this on the back of a Utility ATV (Ranger), and it's electric so no exhaust concerns.

I'll see if I can post some footage once we have the custom seat that we're building installed in the bed of the ATV (although I'm not an experienced glidecam operator so I will probably end up posting some footage that isn't exactly perfect).

Dave
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 5/2/2013, 12:07 AM
Well, just to let everyone know, we did a Vehichle mount with glidecam X-10 dual spring arm and Glidecam HD-4000 with a boating seat attached to the back of the Electric Polaris Ranger. This worked really pretty well, the footage isn't free from shake, and I would have liked a gyro on there as well, but, that being said, some stabilization in post, and things should come out from this quite well. Definitely a useable shot. I'll post something from the show when we get closer to airing. We're not going to be on in at least 6 of the top 10 markets on Comcast Sports Net networks, and able to reach up to 25M homes ( pretty psyched about that :) ).

We were driving off road with this vehicle so it's obviously not going to be free from movements etc..., but a lot of the footage really will be quite useable, and remarkably good compared to what I was expecting with a shooter who had all of 3 days of off and on exp with the rig.

Dave
Rob Franks wrote on 5/2/2013, 6:03 AM



Try the new Sony handy cams. They have gyro stabilizing systems built in and they're closer to 1500 as opposed to 15,000. For obvious reasons they spend a lot more time and energy working out good stabilization techniques on consumer cams as opposed to the higher end cams (at a reasonable price). I just picked up a PJ790, and the gyro system works quite well. This video is not english but it gives you a good opening shot at the beginning at the gyro system built into the lens.

rmack350 wrote on 5/2/2013, 1:27 PM
The X10 is the better choice because of the dual arms. They'll soak up a lot more motion.

Are you guys putting it on a body harness or are you mounting it to a fixed rig on the ATV itself? The fixed mount would save some wear and tear on the operator's body but I guess, conceivably, if it was body mounted the operator could actually walk off the ATV with the camera rolling. I've seen the fixed mounts for Steadicam gear, if glidecam doesn't offer it then I'm sure you could find a machinist who'd be thrilled to take it on.

The trimmability of the mount is like what I'm familiar with on Steadicam gear. The idea is to set up a comfortable balance so that the camera doesn't tend to lunge forward or backward at the face of talent or operator. Then a little hip english controls those motions and trim allows you to set a comfortable "home" position. The problem on an ATV is that your trim will change as the terrain changes and I imagine there'll be a bit of a challenge to controlling that forward/backward lunge. Probably depends on the mass out on the arm, I guess.

On the one and only camera car I've worked on, the jib pedestal was on a gimble with motors to control the trim. An operator would control the motors but the idea was to keep the pedestal vertical. If you could do that then you could minimize the tendency of the jib to lunge. I imagine this same sort of power-trimmed mount point would be desirable in your case if you used a vehicle mount, or if it's operator mounted I wonder if the boat seat could be on a gimble and a foot platform provided (speedrail, maybe) for the operator to push on with his feet?

These things can be over-thought. Simple is best as long as it works and no one's getting hurt.

Rob
FrigidNDEditing wrote on 5/3/2013, 9:58 PM
We are using the X-10 arm, and the HD-4000 gimble arm.

The best results for riding on the back of the ATV with the vehicle mounted glidecam were when we added a good deal of weight added to the bottom so it wasn't actually balanced, but imbalanced so that the camera didn't tend to move around so much which vehicle speed. The arm was mounted to a vehicle mount, which was mounted to a board that attached the boat seat to a swivel mount for the chair, so the shooter was then able to brace his feet and move the chair and that would allow greater range of movement of the suspension arm, and then the camera was just controlled from the HD4000 bar under the gimble.

It was too dangerous to have him wear a vest because the Metal brace that ran the vertical center of the vest and V's at the top would likely have decapitated him if the ATV rolled on a hard surface. So that was right out.

Dave