Multicamera editing - will it work for me?

jeff92k7 wrote on 3/1/2015, 10:22 AM
For years now, I have been using Vegas to edit mutlicamera videos of things like school plays, orchestra concerts, interviews, etc. I primarily have two cameras; a Canon camcorder and a Canon DSLR. Every now and then, I'll add footage from other cameras (cell phones, other cameras, or whatever else may be available).

I have had very good results in putting videos together, but I do it the long way...each camera goes on it's own track and then I split footage on upper tracks and remove the clips or reduce the opacity so that footage from lower tracks shows through. This works, but is very time consuming. However, I have done it this way because of the differences in camera footage and the need to apply different color corrections, levels, and effects to each track to make them match visually.

I typically apply levels corrections before doing any editing since that doesn't change shot to shot, but color curves and color corrections always get applied after all the cuts are done since it can change shot to shot on the camera that moves around to catch different areas of the stage (using a play as an example - school lighting is always horrible).

I have messed with multicamera stuff but always come back to doing it the long way. Now, after reading some more about multicamera, I'd really like to try going to that method to save time but.....

Is there a way to apply different color corrections and effects to the individual camera tracks in a multicamera setup once they're combined into a single multicamera track?

Is there any way to apply individual effects to single shots within a multi camera track? i.e. a 5 second shot from camera 2 needs to have slightly different color balance than all the other shots from camera 2.

Comments

Marc S wrote on 3/1/2015, 11:31 AM
I've found multi-cam in Vegas to be extremely flexible and fast. I think you're pretty much covered with what you want to do.

Some of the things you can do:

1. Once you have finished your edit you can actually uncollapse your tracks. (Tools>Multicamera>Expand to multiple tracks)
2. You can apply effects on the entire clip at any time by right clicking on the master clip in the project media bin and choosing Media FX.
3. You can apply effects on the track level, individual level and output of the entire timeline.
OldSmoke wrote on 3/1/2015, 12:35 PM
[I]Once you have finished your edit you can actually uncollapse your tracks.[/i]

This may actually cause you to loose all your applied FX and is really not necessary. Also, only media FX will stay intact when creating the multicam track. My advice is:
1) line up all the tracks and sync them
2) group all the events
3) If necessary, apply media FX to color correct all shots to look the same
4) create multicam track
5) Make your edit points/cam selection
6) Do final correction on individual events/scenes

I have never expanded the tracks after that because you cant go back from that and collapse them back into a multicma track without loosing all the FX applied to individual events.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Arthur.S wrote on 3/1/2015, 1:05 PM
Totally disagree with Oldsmoke. My workflow (and every job I do involves 2 or 3 multicam edits) Is to do the multicam edit first, then expand back to multiple tracks, THEN do any colour correction/grading, on any level you choose. project, track, or event level. This is far faster, and gives much smoother playback (on my system anyways) for the MC edit. Adding effects first will degrade your preview - unless you have a really (REALLY) top of the range system. And even if you have..try adding some Neat Video and see how you go. ;-)
videoITguy wrote on 3/1/2015, 1:20 PM
Are the differences highlighted in the last three posts of this thread exposing a serious flaw in the multi-camera edit workflow designed by VegasPro? Can choosing a method of the above actually undermine the outcome of a successful color graded camera matched output from several different cameras?
This may mean that the Vegas workflow is really only good for single cameras entered into a multicam edit.
Who is using an output direct to monitor rather than the NLE preview window for such a workflow?
OldSmoke wrote on 3/1/2015, 1:27 PM
And I totally disagree with Arthur.S; it works perfectly fine on my system with 3 and 4 camera projects. Also, if you have made a mistake in your multicam edit you will have a hard time to make changes to your edit points when you tracks are expanded. As I said, going back from expanded to multi cam track will erase all your FX applied with the exception of media FX. There is absolutely no issue with NeatVideo either; you can apply it to individual shots or on your output.

[I]Adding effects first will degrade your preview[/I]
No it doesn't.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

OldSmoke wrote on 3/1/2015, 1:30 PM
No, there is no flaw. The only thing you have to be aware is that making a multicam track will erase any FX,Pan/Crop you already have applied.

Yes, I use the preview window and an external monitor for preview of the final output.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

FPP wrote on 3/1/2015, 3:29 PM
@jeff2k7
I have also done this type of editing the "long way" even though I had the software vp12 under my nose.. But once I got this current profitable project that I'm shooting and will edit, it suddenly made sense to me to develop an efficient workflow while maintaining high production quality.
Along with software like (Plural Eyes 3.5) and a storyboard with a list of shots, I have greatly reduced the labor and time consumption factor of my daily editing sessions.
I am now courageously jumping in to multicam production.. First I wanted to start with 3 cameras but quickly realized I could do quite well visually with 4 cameras and I knew that with the multicam feature in vp12 I was learning a new and professional skill that will yield professional intent.
Arthur.S wrote on 3/2/2015, 10:50 AM
Sorry OS, but you are wrong. Making changes to your edit points after you've expanded is as easy as doing it with any event on the timeline. What makes you thinks it's difficult? Just curious. I'll stress again that only a top notch PC will preview events smoothly that are FX laden. You're rig is obviously one of those. My system will certainly struggle - and it sure ain't 'old'. Why could it be wrong to edit first, add FX after? Seems logical to me, so I 'spose it's a case of "one mans gravy....."
OldSmoke wrote on 3/2/2015, 11:59 AM
[I]I 'spose it's a case of "one mans gravy....."[/I]

I guess it is.

I am not sure what your footage looks like but my usual is AVCHD 720 60p, 3 camera multicam and also AVCHD 1080 60p 3 camera, only once I used an additional 4th camera; each take usually 45min.

I always try to setup my cameras before shooting with a white balance and color chart so that I have very little to correct in post. All I need in post is Sony's CC and B&C plug in applied on media level and that most certainly doesn't slow down my machine. Do you have resample disabled? It makes a big difference!
I use track motion and pan/crop to get all tracks in the preview, much like a multicam preview, and correct the media to match. I then remove the track motion and pan/crop and make my multicam track. From there on, I don't have to split the track again and do all my edits and additional FX.
That's just the way I have been working for the past 5 years and it served me well.

And NO, I am not wrong, I am just doing things differently. I find the expanded view of a multicam track very messy and applying transitions or changing them a pain.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

VidMus wrote on 3/2/2015, 2:17 PM
@ OldSmoke

I am too lazy to spend the extra time it takes to do it your way. ;)

One thought though, doing it your way with all of the effects would slow my system down to a crawl and make multi-camera editing difficult. So the built-in method is the best for my system.

I do not list my system specs at the moment because I am working on them right now.

I also balance my cameras at the shoot as much as possible depending on what the situation allows. This can significantly reduce editing time and allow for much higher quality videos.

The more one has to color correct, the more likely noise and/or other issues can cause problems.

OldSmoke wrote on 3/2/2015, 5:52 PM
[I]I am too lazy to spend the extra time it takes to do it your way.[/I]

Not really so much extra time. It saves me a lot later on when it comes to actual color correction of which I need very little; usually only a special scene where I want to make sure that the difference in lighting from different angles isn't too much.

Sony's own CC and BC FX are fully GPU accelerated and don't slow down my system at all. In fact all of Sony's GPU accelerated FX work extremely well with my GPUs.

As I said before, my method is not for everyone but most certainly not wrong.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Arthur.S wrote on 3/3/2015, 12:49 PM
You've misread me a bit there OS. I didn't say your method of MC is wrong - if it works for you that's all that matters. But " if you have made a mistake in your multicam edit you will have a hard time to make changes to your edit points when you tracks are expanded". This is what I queried. There are 2 options to expand tracks, I choose the option to NOT show the edited out footage as muted events as it's a much cleaner interface - and if I want to change a cam view, I just drag the end of the one I want. Exactly like any other event on the TL.

Interesting point re disabling resampling. My stuff usually goes to BD and DVD together. I suppose I could disable resample for the HD version, but reapply it for the DVD. Resampling is better for resized footage? Am I correct?
OldSmoke wrote on 3/3/2015, 1:16 PM
@Arthur.S
With the tracks expanded either way you can't get back the multicam view in the preview which is very important to me. By leaving the multicam track, I can always switch back with a keyboard short cut and see all my shots on the screen.

As for resampling, it has nothing to do with resizing but more with changing frame rates that are not a multiple of each other, 50p to 60p for example, but most of the time it can make a mess out of things and I usually leave it off.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

TeetimeNC wrote on 3/3/2015, 3:58 PM
OldSmoke, this is a rhetorical (or maybe even dumb) question but it could be of interest to those of who might try multicam editing without enough gpu. Is it possible to do the cc and grading as you describe, and then use proxies in multicam?

/jerry
OldSmoke wrote on 3/3/2015, 4:59 PM
@TeeTime

Yes, that should work.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

Arthur.S wrote on 3/4/2015, 1:31 PM
So, not forgetting jeff92k7's original questions

"Is there a way to apply different color corrections and effects to the individual camera tracks in a multicamera setup once they're combined into a single multicamera track?"
Yes there is.

"Is there any way to apply individual effects to single shots within a multi camera track? i.e. a 5 second shot from camera 2 needs to have slightly different color balance than all the other shots from camera 2."
Yes there is.

The proviso is that you will lose any effects applied before you create the multicam track, so if you're using the Vegas MC, leave colour grading etc until afterwards.

Best advice is try it and see!

OldSmoke wrote on 3/4/2015, 3:16 PM
The proviso is that you will lose any effects applied before you create the multicam track

You only loose those applied on the event or track level but not those on media level.

Proud owner of Sony Vegas Pro 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 & 13 and now Magix VP15&16.

System Spec.:
Motherboard: ASUS X299 Prime-A

Ram: G.Skill 4x8GB DDR4 2666 XMP

CPU: i7-9800x @ 4.6GHz (custom water cooling system)
GPU: 1x AMD Vega Pro Frontier Edition (water cooled)
Hard drives: System Samsung 970Pro NVME, AV-Projects 1TB (4x Intel P7600 512GB VROC), 4x 2.5" Hotswap bays, 1x 3.5" Hotswap Bay, 1x LG BluRay Burner

PSU: Corsair 1200W
Monitor: 2x Dell Ultrasharp U2713HM (2560x1440)

jeff92k7 wrote on 3/5/2015, 9:07 AM
Thanks guys. The discussion has been 'interesting'. Next project I have, I'll give multicam a try again.
Arthur.S wrote on 3/5/2015, 1:31 PM
"but not those on media level."

You learn something every day - didn't know that. Wonder why that was built in?
hv wrote on 8/3/2015, 12:50 AM
I like to color correct my multi cam tracks before doing the cuts because I find it more efficient to automate the corrections based on the camera moves in each track (pans, tilts, and zooms), not the cuts. To get around Vegas throwing the track FX away on mutitrack combining, I've found if I save my project to a new name after combining, I can do all my cuts then expand the combo track back to the original number of tracks, then copy and paste all the automation moves back in. Trick is to open 2 instances of Vegas with the pre and post cut project files. Next recreate the same track fx you used in the old file for each expanded track in the new file. Then select all the automation diamonds in each old track's fx edit screen by clicking on the last diamond (it turns a light color when selected), then going to the 1st diamond and clicking while holding down the shift key... which should turn all the diamonds to the light coloring indicating they're all selected. Then right-click on that 1st diamond to copy, go to the new file, automate the same fx on the same track, select the 1st diamond (there should only be one), then right-click on it to paste. All the FX automation moves should appear. Works for me in 64-bit Vegas 12 and 13. Found its best to run the same version if opening multiple instances of Vegas.