Subject:Benefits of 24bit ???

Posted by: MattX

Date:3/19/2002 2:21:24 PM

does anybody know the benefits of using 24bit over 16bit in Acid 3.0?
does it increase headroom?
give a wider sound quality??
more dymanic range???
where can i find the specs?

i use my system to make dance music and my freinds all tell me Cubase 32bit gives a better sound quality.
i don't feel like changing programs, so if i change it to 24bit will it make a difference.

also why isn't a program as heavily used as Acid have 32 bit technology?
it seems the only thing they are proud of is the Stretching technolgy...........?
am i wrong for saying that??

MX

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:3/19/2002 3:05:09 PM

You really want to be working with 24bit files because 24 bits captures that much more "data" from the original sound source than 16bit. The 8 extra "bits" addes to the quality of the sound and also when you apply fx to it you get better results. Cubase being 24bit/32bit floating point is cool but it is NOT a loop sequencing software. It is a multitrack like vegas video is...but vegas only supports 24bit...no 32bit floating point algorithm as far as I know. Hopefully in the near future BOTH programs will be updated to that standard and above...

All acid loops as of right now are strictly 16bit/44.1khz.To me the reason for this is mostly because they sell loops on CD mediums. You can only store 16bit\44.1khz on them. BUT you can create loops of higher quality and use them...its just that you have to do that in either acid or soundforge5[which does have 32bit floating point!]
I think that you'll be seeing 24bit quality loops in the near future...do a search on the acid loop page and you'll find a cd full of 24bit loops.

You'll never get as much work done in cubase as you'll get done in acid...no way. Maybe they'vew improved some in SX coming out in a bit...But I'm sure Acid has something up its sleave to keep cubase at bay!

Post any suggestions you have here and at the product suggestion page on this site http://www.sonicfoundry.com/support/productsuggestion.asp .I'm sure that they are hard at work on the next upgrade and will please the most skeptical in its next release. Later.

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/19/2002 3:42:06 PM

ACID has always done 32 bit floating point internally - so has Vegas. Most DAWs have been doing this for years. It is not black magic or even unique. The point of doing 32 bit FP internally is that you maintain as much as possible of the "mix" before the final conversion to fixed point: what hardware and rendered files(typically)use.

There are no such thing - well let me say "affordable" - 32 bit AD/DA converts on the market. 24 bit is pretty much common place, but the quality of the converters dictates how many of those 24 bits are useful. Your recording environment also makes a big difference.

Peter

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:3/19/2002 3:46:48 PM

If your final output is burning audio CDs, then anything beyond 17 bits is probably a waste.

The advantage of 24 bit processing is that ACID can more accurately calculate the results of mixing, effects, volume changes, etc. But in the end, the output file will be lopped of to 16 bits on the CD anyway. Each additional bit only adds half as much to the accuracy of the calculation as the bit before it. By the time you get to the 24th bit, you're dealing with 1/256th (or about 0.0039) of the information that can be represented on the CD. The 32nd bit is only 1/65536th (or about 0.000015258). Who really cares? To put it another way, bits 25 through 32 can only make a maximum difference of 1 part in over 16 million in the shape of the final output waveform. That's like the difference between the sound level inside a jet engine and the sound of a butterfly flapping it's wing. It just doesn't make any difference at that point.

Concentrate on the features that the software has to offer, not the technical hype.

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: SHTUNOT

Date:3/19/2002 5:19:59 PM

ACID has always done 32 bit floating point internally - so has Vegas-SonicPCH

I stand corrected. I have never seen it advertised that 32bit floating point was ever used in anything other than Soundforge 5...and that you have to "reclick" the box in the preferences to use it per session. Or am I missing something here as well. Thanks for the info. Later.

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: MattX

Date:3/19/2002 6:43:28 PM

thanks everybody for the helpful information. i never expected answers like that.

i've been getting beaten up these days for using this program but i can't help it. i just move sooooo much faster.
funny thing is, before i tell anyone i use ACID they NEVER suspect it.
actually i get grilled about what type of equipment i use, and how my sound is sooooo good.....they almost have a heartattack when i tell them. NO JOKE.
whats fu**ed up is how some people then look at my music differently, like it's not as worthy as "THE ALMIGHTY LOGIC" or the cunning CUBASE VST.....what B/S!

i'm sticking around. hopefully SF steps it up!!!

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: pwppch

Date:3/19/2002 7:03:23 PM

Chienworks said:
The advantage of 24 bit processing is that ACID can more accurately calculate the results of mixing, effects, volume changes, etc.

This is not really true.
Since we do everything in 32 bit Floating Point, 24 bit'ness has no impact unless the original audio is at 24 bit - i.e. you are recording new material or your loops are 24 bit.

One of the points of higher bit depths is to increase the representation of very soft signals improving the dynamic range of the signal - ie, improving the "noise floor". If you have more bits to "sample" a given signal, you can sample lower amplitude signals with more accuracy. (It is VERY dependent on the AD converters, so mileage will vary.)

All mixing internally is done in floating point. The final conversion to fixed point does not occur until the hardware stage or when rendering to a file in fixed point. (Ok, one exception: If any of the plugins you use don't support floating point processing, then we have to do a conversion to and from the fixed point bit depth the plug in supports. We attempt the highest bit depth, but it is dependent on the plugin.)


Peter

Subject:RE: Benefits of 24bit ???

Reply by: Chienworks

Date:3/19/2002 8:15:18 PM

Thanks for the correction Peter. I guess what i meant to say was "using more than 16 bits", and i did intend to refer to internal processing, not the files going in and out.